The perfect Passagemaker III, propulsion

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by apex1, Aug 26, 2010.

?

Please pick your poison

  1. Trawler: single Mitsubishi

    14 vote(s)
    35.0%
  2. Trawler: twin Luggers

    11 vote(s)
    27.5%
  3. Yacht: single Grenaa Diesel

    13 vote(s)
    32.5%
  4. Yacht: twin Mitsubishi´s

    2 vote(s)
    5.0%
  5. Yacht: twin Luggers

    4 vote(s)
    10.0%
  6. I am fine with less accommodation in favour of a large engine room.

    26 vote(s)
    65.0%
  7. I prefer large accommodation, the engine room is second.

    2 vote(s)
    5.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    So then Peers,

    we have the style, actually two most preferred styles which are really very different, but attractive. Each one in his own way.

    The Trawler[​IMG]
    The Gentlemans Yacht[​IMG]

    see:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-style-within-genre-34092.html

    Both favourite designs are very close in popularity, therefore both will be build.
    The trawler will come out at roughly 22 Meter, the Gentlemans Yacht at 25 Meter.


    We have the material of choice. Steel.

    Most probably that means steel hull and Aluminium superstructure, joined by Triclad.

    see:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-ii-building-material-34265.html


    We now have to decide about the most important factor, the grease compartement. Commonly executed as a cute little "Diesel box" with a teak hatch.
    Thats not what I understand as being a engine room.
    These little ships need to have access to every single system, immediately, quick, and without the need to remove anything.
    The engine room access has to be from the interior. In bad weather one cannot access a engine room from the side or aft deck, thats crazy.

    Remember we are talking about vessels, capable of going really anywhere, from high latitudes to the tropic seas.

    We therefore have to install a very reliable but fuel sipping propulsion.

    A CPP is mandatory and must not be discussed. (no matter if there is a single one supporter of this idea or not, CPP/s will be installed)

    For those not familiar with the systems,
    see:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/props/controllable-pitch-propeller-summary-30695.html

    Both designs are imho longing for a single engine setup, and the trawler will have not much accommodation left with twin propulsion, but this is a question to be discussed.

    We do not choose any brands or specific engines
    (I have my own opinion and that does not change), but I give some examples.
    So, when you vote, you vote for the "example" or something similar.

    It is mute to mention Hybrid or D/E layouts, they do not exist.
    We talk business here, not premature dreams. Therefore:
    skimp on that please.

    Same is valid for any "alternative" propulsion or sails. These are motoryachts, period.

    Due to the fact, that we decide about the useable accommodation as well, when we decide about one or the other system, I included tick boxes accordingly.
    Multiple choice therefore is provided of course.
    I did not provide the box " I am fine with a head and hammock in a proper engine room", sorry Mark775....

    Now,

    for the trawler:

    single Mitsubishi S6R, 25 ltr., 600hp, or twin Lugger (John Deere) 12,5 ltr., 400hp

    for the Gentlemans Circumnavigator:

    single Grenaa Diesel, 81 ltr., 600hp, or twin Mitsubishi S6R, 25 ltr.600hp, or twin Lugger 12,5 ltr., 400hp
    Engines rated per piece

    Let us know what YOU would like to operate on a circumnavigation.

    Richard
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Eric Sponberg
    Joined: Dec 2001
    Posts: 2,003
    Likes: 205, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2917
    Location: On board Corroboree

    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    I don't necessarily like any of your options. For Americans, we would go with Cummins or Caterpillar for standard diesel engines. John Deere is not bad either. As another European option, what about Volvo; they are really big in marine yacht and commercial engines? MAN diesels also appear here and there. Perhaps you would be so kind as to add these to your list.

    I disagree about hybrid power. Although not fully developed yet, but it is here and lots of progress is being made. At IBEX coming up next month, we have two state-of-the-art sessions on hybrid power based on current and coming installations (I am moderating one of them). I think the current crop of megayacht designs, with standard power, could very easily become big white elephants and fuel guzzlers as the wealthy owners realize they have real conspicuous consumers on their hands. Hybrid power offers lots of promise, and a strong case can be made for further developing that technology. It would be interesting to see what the forum guests think.

    Engine rooms should be neither too big nor too small. One is ill-advised to have too small an engine space, of course. On the other hand, too big a space robs comfort from the rest of the yacht.

    Eric
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    Single diesel, no questions asked.

    -Tom
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    It is not neccessary to like any of the options Eric. I clearly stated that these engines stand as examples for a range. Brands mentioned should only give a idea.

    I completely contradict on the Hybrid question.
    We don´t have a hybrid solution for such yachts today!

    All systems on the market are insufficient, expensive, complicated and heavy. Steam propulsion makes still more sense.

    Promoting Hybrid systems for a long range cruiser, capable of 3000 miles at speeds above 8kn is insane, sorry.

    Regards
    Richard

    I install MAN´s in every other boat, they are not only here and there, they are the market leader in a certain segment. Volvos I would not install when given for free.
     
  5. Eric Sponberg
    Joined: Dec 2001
    Posts: 2,003
    Likes: 205, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2917
    Location: On board Corroboree

    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    Richard,

    I appreciate your observations. Interesting what you say about MAN and Volvo. Thanks.

    If your brand names are only suggestions, then the real options, I presume, are either single screw or twin screw.

    It has been interesting seeing the market reaction to trawlers from my end. There is always a demand for twin screw, but it comes at added cost and maintenance. The alternative is single screw only--but then there is always the possibility of getting stranded out in the ocean with a fuel or mechanical failure.

    The next step up, also in high demand, is single-screw with a get-home drive. And of those there are two kinds, get-home PTO on main prop shaft driven either hydraulically or electrically from the main generator; OR, a whole separate small engine. I personally believe that the PTO option is better because the main generator is always used, and so is always maintained. A separate small engine is rarely used and often neglected. So, in my opinion, if you can't go twin, go PTO take-home on a single screw installation. If I had my druthers and was inclined to buy such a boat, I think I would go for the twin screws if I could afford it.

    Eric
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Personally I would not waste a thought about a getting home system. A high displacement, low rev. single lasts forever when maintained.
    The entire fishing fleet of the world proves that every minute. And they have one of the best prop fouling devices always at hand!

    Regards
    Richard

    They are out of business since ages, and it is not allowed to install used engines in new vessels. (not valid for homebuilders of course, but for us)
     
  7. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
    Posts: 2,164
    Likes: 52, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 575
    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    Only reason for dual engine is to reduce draft via two propellers, that was my choice since I want to go into rivers and inland canals.
     
  8. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Inland canals with such a boat?
    At least in Europe, that does not function.
    And substantial draft is necessary on these boats anyway.
    Ocean passages are the main part of the topic.
     
  9. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    "The only reason...", that's a close minded, false statement.

    -Tom
     
  10. Eric Sponberg
    Joined: Dec 2001
    Posts: 2,003
    Likes: 205, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2917
    Location: On board Corroboree

    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    Totally agree. Many people who approach me, however, remain unconvinced, so we always have the same conversation about get-home engines and set-ups. Maybe the people of this forum are more saavy about the yacht that they want and have a realistic attitude about maintenance.

    Eric
     
  11. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    One engine, Greena. no question in my mind.
    Large engine room, engine casing going through all the deck, skylight on top and ventilation in and out system.
    Mezzanine in the main deck engine room entrance for observation and with the shut off fuel system immediately at the mezzanine entrance.
    Escape route from the engine room to the accommodation on the lower deck.
    I will be in favor to an engine room on the aft end, so it allow to have a easier inspection of the shafting system and rudder system.
    Of course 9 to 10 tons on the engine room aft of the middle will have to be kept in mind when designing the hull.
    Since the vessel will be manned by a couple with occasional guest, the accommodation will not need to be as expensive as a charter vessel with full crew, thus the engine room can be of good dimension, giving the Greena space to be overall "in situ". A workbench with a lathe will be a plus.
    My two cents
    Daniel
     
  12. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    One other point I think can be taken in consideration, is a transpacific range. 7000 nm will make the vessel a real offshore vessel.
    I don't see the draft a problem, the deeper the better, likewise for the displacement: hefty to take care of the change of displacement due to the consumption. The water-maker can be use for taking care of the compensating tanks and trim tanks.
    I will also put a small incinerator to take care of the countless oily rags, extremely dangerous if not properly disposed, and the general garbage.
    A Greena need a hull in accordance in weight and range. It is also a life style. No marina, full ocean exploration, self sufficient, all weather capability.

    As always my two cents

    Daniel
     
  13. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 2,569
    Likes: 117, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1650
    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Of course this is a way over my range but anyways, the same principles matters as with the boats I'm used to. Not much to add what Daniel said.. and no such thing comes to mind right now :)
     
  14. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,403
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    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    I agree. I chose twin luggers because of safety redundancy. One of two will get you home when zero of one leaves you helpless.
     

  15. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,403
    Likes: 197, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    I do realize that if bad fuel caused one to quit, both probably would quit, but if something else was the problem you would still make headway.
     
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