Submarine Yacht project

[jim lee]

Do you have any more recent photos of the finished machine? Powerplant installation controls etc.?

-jim lee

 

[kach22i]

A similar submarine, but on a smaller scale (model):
http://www.modelluboot.de/KITS/Kugelfisch_Ordner/KugelfischE.html

 

[wellmer]

submarine yacht pictures projects discussions

new pictures of my concrete submarine yacht and current projects now available at:
www.concretesubmarine.com

I would like to create a network of people interested in submarine yachts to get the concept on track... let me hear your thoughts...

Cheers Wil

 

[MarkC]

wellmer,

Have I read this correctly on your web site?

Ferrocement is a yacht construction technique where you form a a boat with dozends of layers of chicken wire and then press cement between the mashes. This produces crackling and rusting meshwire problems.

You can't really be serious with this comment? It is incorrect.

I think you can promote your technique without slagging-off other building techniques.

I mean, you are trying to build trust. In my opinion these comments only make your project look insecure.


A good text to read:

FERROCEMENT AND LAMINATED CEMENTITIOUS COMPOSITES

by Antoine E. Naaman, Ph.D.
Fellow ACI; Fellow ASCE; Fellow PCI; Fellow IFS
Professor of Civil Engineering, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
Hardcover; 372 pages; 160 figures and illustrations; 43 pages containing 120 photographs; design aids; bibliographic references; 7.25x9.5 in.
ISBN: 0-9674939-0-0; LCCN: 99-96382
Copyright 2000

See also the University of Michigan and their concrete canoes:
http://www.engin.umich.edu/team/canoe/construction.html

Another reference text from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/V9468E/v9468e00.HTM
Fishing Boat Construction: 3. Building a Ferrocement Fishing Boat

Here, in Boatdesign.net design articles - there is the US Navy Ferro Cement Boat Building Manual in PDF.

There is also the:
American Bureau of Shipping:
(Document ref. Sections 5.7 and 10)

 

[wellmer]

Hello Marc,
You are completely right. My apologies to ferro cement constructions. I have not done sufficient in ferro cement to make any well founded comment about this method. What i wanted to make clear is that there is a BIG difference between concrete engineering as seen in tunnel and oilrig construction and ferro cement - the difference is similar to a glass bottle versus glass fiber composite.
The comment about crackling is a general comment - what kind of problems you have to deal with - i am not saying you can not handle this and the method is not valid. In concrete construction the protection of the steel is guaranteed by a simpel rule - 2cm concrete cover are required over any steel bar. It is obvious that this can not be performed in walls below 3 cm which would be to heavy for a yacht application. Anyhow obviously there are ways to achive this protection in ferro cement - obviously not any ferro cement yacht crackles - not any steel yacht rusts - not any glass fiber hull is plagued by osmosis - just a poorly built one - Any building method and material has its pros and cons is valid in its field of application, brings up problems if not applied well. Cheers Wilfried

 

[MarkC]

there is a BIG difference between concrete engineering as seen in tunnel and oilrig construction and ferro cement - the difference is similar to a glass bottle versus glass fiber composite.

That is a better comment!

Good luck with your project - it looks like you have done much work to get where you are.

 

[Hotel Lima]

How would you operate one if these in an ocean or sea without being sunk by your own navy?

 

[Mesuge]

Hi Wil, this is absolutely amazing thread as I've been lurking around the psub.org pages and linked projects incl. yours for couple of recent yrs..

Now first round of many questions and suggestions

1/ Snorkeling - how reliable is this in rough/high seas?
As mentioned in the other thread overhere you can't use it in bad weather that much..

2/ Thinking about "straight veggie diesel" or flexfuel, these kits are usually not a problem for diesel tractor engines now etc.

3/ Bow thruster? Probably not necessary for the 20t but might be necessary for those >60tonners to easily navigate in tight areas. When installed bellow - how much is this going to negatively affect the overall efficiency of the uber hydrodynamic blimp design? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_thruster

4/ What about Kort nozzel for higher engine/overall vessel speed/efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kort_nozzle

5/ Small living space?! No, actually giant living space!
First step, well you can install some hooks and retractable struts between the two snorkles and put up a cheap summer roof/bimini like on those big cats/yachts for nice siesta shade. Won't take much space as rolled fabric when submerged and hidden in your storage area.

Secondly, and more importantely, when on the surface in calm waters you can install small struts on the starboard with small inflatable hull parallel to the main hull, think about those polyneasian diy cats/trimarans. Now, you just place a net/mesh between the struts and the sub, so you have suddenly many dozens additional m2 of space for leisure activities with shade from the bimini. One can reasonable assume it would take only 20mins to prepare such a leisure setup after resurfacing..

Only then you can finally call it "submarine yacht camping"!!!
If not clear I'll send a diagram..


6/ Any ideas about ultra-low friction-smooth top layer coat/color on the C-sub for higher water gliding efficiency? This for sure must exist, perhaps developed for a bit different products on the market but might be utlized by diy c-subbers..

7/ Well, I know it's not very realistic at this point, but I'm most fascinated by the prospect of average mortals perhaps having access to those 25m >100tonner scaled designs of c-subs, which would make for truely great living aboard ocean capable ship. I'm wondering, besides the concrete costs, what would be the price of valves/hydraulics/electronics in this weight range - is it still going to be managable for diyers within "light" diving performance -100/200m max?

8/ Concrete technology - I've to read up more on this whole area but just an idea.
There are some scientists who discovered that the Giza pyramids and their stone blocs were most likely at least partly made/casted from concrete. This 5k years old chemical formula is cheaper and less CO2 taxing on the environment than the modern industrial method. Not sure about the high presure resistance properties compatibility we need for c-subs though.

The whole video lecture of those scientists is here, incl. the process of manuf. this kind of cheap yet very hard concrete..

Overview:
http://www.livescience.com/history/070518_bts_barsoum_pyramids.html

Video lecture:
http://media.irt.drexel.edu/mediasite/viewer/?peid=cd83d501-eccb-497e-ad63-3d08a26de747

Homepage and manuf. video of "geopolymers":
http://www.materials.drexel.edu/Pyramids/

 

[dccd]

Wow, really good execution of a one-off design and concrete will always be a good choice for a displacement type of yacht, under or on waves. I like the idea of the Concrete houseboat simple robust with cast in foam blocks darn near unsinkable. I have seen some very sophisticated concrete shapes for the local drainage construction projects. Many have the Styrofoam inserts still in them to be removed before installed. These inserts create the opening and nice sealing detail grooves where pipes are joined.

I can envision a sub-yacht interior plug of Styrofoam placed in the mold which has bulkheads, cabinet voids and open floor channels for piping/elec to be covered with floor boards when done. The Styrofoam can either be sandblasted out or some use of acetone for the difficult shapes. The design possibilities are endless.

 

[Mesuge]

dccd> yes, Styrofoam in the mold seems to be a very neat idea for c-subs detailing. Carsten from the Euronaut sub has suggested exactly the same along the lines, "Go with the idea that the water tanks, hard and soft but also the gas and fuel storage tanks are just caves in the concrete and make the hole concept integral. regards Carsten"


-but these storage caves are almost entirely not serviceble after the end of construction, so someone should run a simulation about the safe dimensions for several decades of operation.

-there will be need for additional filters before valves as the outer layer of concrete will slightly desintegrate over time (small particles) etc.

-thanks to modern CAD/CNC this whole rather complex 3D setup could be nicely designed and then realized during construction phase

-but not sure about the inclusion of compressed air storage as well, how reliable and long lasting this could be? I doubt it has the potential to match the presurized bottles which are used in psubs nowadays..

 

[StianM]

I think alot of ritch people want there own submarines in the folowin years and it would be class and fancy stuff like Kevlar hulls, but folowin this I gues those less ritch would like one and there you have a nice market for concrete submarines. Annyone could pull togheter enough money to buy the concrete neaded for that submarine.

Just my though annyway

I gues your using baterys as propulsion.

I think I read a article some years ago about the swedish navy using Stirling engines in one submarine as a test project.

High preshure air from gasbotles where injected into the stirling engines combustion chamber together with fuel and the ehaust was pumped out into the water. Annyone else sen this?

Defently a great project, but I would not buy one. I like to keep my head abow water Almoust drowned as a kid.

 

[Hotel Lima]

Im still wondering how you keep from getting ASW aircraft chasing you all around.

 

[marshmat]

8/ Concrete technology - I've to read up more on this whole area but just an idea.
There are some scientists who discovered that the Giza pyramids and their stone blocs were most likely at least partly made/casted from concrete. This 5k years old chemical formula is cheaper and less CO2 taxing on the environment than the modern industrial method. Not sure about the high presure resistance properties compatibility we need for c-subs though.

There are low-CO2 and CO2-sequestration concrete manufacturing methods available today, that are as versatile as regular methods. The capital costs of the manufacturing plant are higher, though, and concrete companies on the whole are so penny-pinching that there's just no demand for new plants to be set up with better technology.

I think I read a article some years ago about the swedish navy using Stirling engines in one submarine as a test project. High preshure air from gasbotles where injected into the stirling engines combustion chamber together with fuel and the ehaust was pumped out into the water. Annyone else sen this?

Yep, this has been explored a number of times for leisure submarines as well. The Stirling cycle is ideal because it is inherently a lot more efficient than the Otto or Diesel cycles, thus you can actually get a bit of underwater range on the combustion engine if you have enough air tanks; the downside is the equipment is much larger and heavier for comparable power output. Such a sub really still needs some degree of electric drive to be practical, however, as underwater endurance with the Stirling cycle units is limited by the amount of compressed air you can carry.

Im still wondering how you keep from getting ASW aircraft chasing you all around.

Paint it yellow and blast your Beatles collection on the external speakers. This should make it pretty clear to the ASW sonar operator that you ain't hostile

 

[Poida]

I saw a documentary last weekend about someone building a sub.

It had a large perspex dome front and the idea was for tourists. Lots of visibility which I think is needed for that type of work.

Also a feature that I haven't seen mentioned on this concrete sub, is a weight release system to surface the sub should there be a loss of power.

Subs rise by pumping out the water used for ballast, a loss of power means your pumps won't work. Pump failure = the same thing.

This sub had weights attached by pins that were extracted manually, so in case of power failure you could extract the pins, drop the weight and the sub would then be positively buoyant and float to the surface.

Does this sub have such a feature?

Poida

 

[wellmer]

submarine yacht safety features

Hi Poida,

The submarine yacht at (www.concretesubmarine.com) was a prove of concept study. So what i tried to do with it is to test it all. I had a electric pump and a hand pump, this submarine although 20 tons of displacement tended to return to surface with the displacement of water of only 1 liter so you can manage that with a hand pump. But what happens if big quantities of water come in in case of emergency or you need a extra lift because of entanglement? So i added drop weights - but this is a "stay in water" concept - mechanical mechanisms you can trust with your life after exposure of years to marine environment are hard to perform. So i added a experimental saddle tank at the top of the hull and found that a very simple low tec security lift - i would recommend it - it is also standard in military subs - for good reasons i assume - although you have to be careful with ice build up on the compressed air nozzles ...

Cheers Wilfried