Some questions on polars and upwind/downwind performance

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Tedd McHenry, Sep 7, 2021.

  1. HelmutSheina
    Joined: Dec 2025
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    HelmutSheina Junior Member

    I cannot help you with a spreadsheet Goetz, but I am aware that the excellent free and open source OpenCPN boat management software has a "Polars" plugin that might do what you want.
    Polar Plugin https://opencpn.org/OpenCPN/plugins/polar.html
     
  2. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    If this can help you : I developed myself a VPP for sailboat on Open Office Calc spreadsheet (an Excel équivalent), here below, use the last 3,4 version in quote#2 :
    Gene-Hull Sailboat 3.3 and its post applications Gene-Stab and Gene-VPP https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/gene-hull-sailboat-3-3-and-its-post-applications-gene-stab-and-gene-vpp.67842/
     
  3. Goetz
    Joined: Jan 2026
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    Goetz New Member

    Dear Helmut, thanks I lot. I use OpenCPN as a secondary navigation system but never went into routing so I was not aware that you could "abuse" the Polar Diagram Plugin just for creating a VPP Polar Diagram. I tried with a few data points and - perfect. Thank you!

    upload_2026-1-31_10-41-17.png
     
  4. Goetz
    Joined: Jan 2026
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    Goetz New Member

    Dear Dolfiman - thank you. Looks like many sleepless nights to program. As I have already a setup of data points (TWA and STW) and "just" wand to get a polar diagram your very impressive tool is a bit "overkill".
     
  5. CarlosK2
    Joined: Jun 2023
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    Question number 1

    Draft

    Folkboat draft = 1.16 m

    The ability to sail close-hauled (for example 45° TWA) Upwind depends largely on the square (!) of the draft

    Question number 2

    Sailing with the wind is more complicated than it seems, starting with the simple reason that it reduces the speed of the wind reaching the sailboat: the so-called apparent wind, which might be better called the effective wind
     
  6. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    Regarding surfing

    We have

    A) The stern-lift effect, a marvel for a yacht sailing at 0.5 Froude with the hull at +2° up ... A disaster for a slow yacht sailing at 0.35 Froude (Hull trim +/-0°) and even more so if, due to longitudinal imbalance, it's prone to rapid and/or deep pitching

    B) The Froude-Krylov force, which in a small sailboat is best forgotten because perhaps it's a small, insignificant, or even zero quantity—I don't know. This summer I had a long, entertaining, and fun discussion with DeepSeek, and the matter is confusing

    C) Mr. Isaac Newton, which is the crux of the matter: Propulsive force enjoyed by the yacht = mass of the yacht x 9.8 x sine of the wave angle = Newtons
     
  7. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    While it's true that "Surf gliding is surf riding in bigger waves," I still think it's useful to distinguish between two cases:

    1) When the wavelength of the wave is between one and two times the length of the yacht, in this case, A and B are important, and perhaps even for small yachts, the Froude-Krylov model of surf riding for large ships could be applied. My experience sailing my old Mini Transat is that surf riding can begin with tiny waves

    2) Enormous Ocean Waves, where the key factor is the mass of the yacht in kilograms x 9.8 x sine of the wave = Newtons

    Why my heavy Yacht surf so fast

    Why does my boat surf so fast? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/why-does-my-boat-surf-so-fast.50195/

    Because ... Sir Isaac Newton
     
  8. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member



    "the old man and the sea"

    2.4 tons, 19.19 feet LWL
    heading for the Canary Islands

    It was sailing at 5 knots and then surfed, reaching 10 knots

    It was sailing at 5.5 knots and surfed reaching 12 knots

    It was sailing at 6 knots and surfed reaching 14 knots

    And finally, it was sailing at 7 knots and performed a tremendous 45-second Surf at 20.5 knots over the bottom (GPS, SOG) which over the water was perhaps 20 or maybe 24 knots

    I insist: the surprising thing wasn't the speed reached

    The amazing thing is that it didn't flip over three times like a church bell

    The incredible thing is that it Surfed again and again with complete safety, controlled by a pilot with little more brainpower than a crystal radio ... thanks to the stable hydrodynamic balance on all three axes: Roll, Yaw, Pitch
     
  9. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

  10. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member



    (B) the "wave-induced surge force" ... is the horizontal component of the Froude-Krylov force

    On the other hand (A) if the stern of a sailboat traveling at 0.40-0.50 Froude is raised, the resistance decreases

    In other words, on a small sailboat, both of these factors can release the boat from its displacement regime and launch it into planing-surfing => 0.60 Froude

    And this occurs in a benign environment: with small waves

    And with very big large ocean waves, the boat glides, propelled by the all-powerful Force of the Earth, in a similar way (though not exactly) like in this video, (because this is a very slow wave created by a rock near the shore):

     
  11. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    On a small yacht, even the smallest one (1 ton) a single crew member can't trim the hull like on a dinghy without a ballasted Keel

    In that video, the girl has shifted the center of gravity dramatically, perhaps to 70-75% (!?) of the LWL

    On a yacht, hull trim for good surfing must be hydrodynamic

    1) High pressure as in the video: hydroDynamic Lift thanks to a (1A) flat surface and (1B) good beam

    2) Low pressure (suction) under the stern (as in this video where they subject an old ship to an impossible speed):



    3) Or a combination of high pressure under the bow and low pressure, suction, under the stern

    This creates a nice equilibrium: the wave lifts the stern, the boat accelerates and lifts the bow, and the stern dips and settles into the wave, riding it

    ---

    Note that since about 1880 the obsession has been that the stern does not sink, because it increases resistance

    ---

    Question: Could the angle of attack and hull trim be optimized to increase speed?

    That's a question for the world of high-performance racing, beyond the capabilities of Excel spreadsheets and 1925 fluid mechanics, and outside my practical interests.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2026
  12. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    IMG_20251010_091553.jpg

    TWS: 30 knots
    AWS: 16 knots
    Wind Force: 885 Newtons
    Sir Isaac Newton: 2241 Newtons
    Wave: 12°
    SailBoat Speed: 20 knots
    Force Froude-Krylov: irrelevant in this case (DeepSeek and Carlos consensus)

    The question of speed is ultimately irrelevant because the maximum speed (unless the sailboat is monstrously powerful) is the speed of the wave

    And what might interest us is how long you can ride the wave, and that's extremely complicated because the sweet spot for surfing is very small: on a 77-meter wave, the good zone is perhaps only a little over 12 meters

    More interesting is whether you catch many waves or just a few.

    And above all, the most important thing, I think, is good behaviour and functional enjoyment
     
  13. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member



    The maximum speed reached with Force 7 waves is typically 19-20 knots, which is the speed of a young F7 wave

    This Mini Transat Pogo 2 reaches a similar top speed to the old 2.4-ton boat bound for the Canary Islands

    What changes is: the number of waves caught, the duration of the surf, and the speed in the trough, and therefore the average speed

    This isn't so crucial, either

    19 days to cross the Atlantic, 1979-1989 Mini Transat

    17 days and 6 hours for the Scow 747 "Magnum" 2011 Mini Transat

    I'm interested in speed because the waves are very fast; that is, I'm interested in it as a component of safety, comfort, pleasure, and functional and technical-scientific beauty.

    ---

    To put it another way: the Mini Transats of 1979-1989 surfed beautifully

    Planing on flat using brute force isn't an interesting goal outside the world of high-level competition

    Planing is one thing; planing-gliding-surfing well in Waves is another—something that all boats, big and small, heavy and light, motorboats and sailboats, should be able to do.

    The waves are out there, surfing is the way
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2026
  14. Tedd McHenry
    Joined: Feb 2020
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    Tedd McHenry Junior Member

    It looks like other people have provided you with better solutions, but here's a sample of my spreadsheet, based on published data from the HR 44.

    As you said, you can just copy and paste the data you have into the top table on the "HR Data" sheet and get a polar for that data. Unfortunately, the spreadsheet is "brittle" in that the data has to be in exactly the same format--i.e., speeds at 6, 8 10, 12, 14, 16, 20, 25, and 30 knots for the same TWAs. Your data likely won't be in exactly that format, which would mean reverse engineering the spreadsheet a little.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. CarlosK2
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    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    IMG_20260203_115035.jpg

    Simplifying

    The effective Froude-Krylov Force on a moving yacht can be, for example, 0.3 (Pitch) and 0.2 (Wave-induced Surge) times the Froude-Krylov Force calculated for a stationary object

    While sailing, we feel the approaching wave push the stern upwards and give us a forward thrust

    A yacht sailing at a speed of 0.5 Froude is sailing on what could be described as a hydrostatic wedge (W) of water piled up in a small mound, which in turn is shaped by high (H) and low (L) hydrodynamic pressures

    And there is a Drag (D) towards the stern that depends on the hull trim (t)

    With all this, what I want to say is that the wave coming from the stern takes the yacht out of the semi-displacement zone (0.4-0.6 Froude) and launches it into planing (=> 0.6 Froude) and surf riding
     

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