Odd rig...

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by 1J1, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. 1J1
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    1J1 Senior Member

    Accidentally I came across a some odd looking design for a yacht on http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41971/41971-h/41971-h.htm#img013

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41971/41971-h/images/img013.jpg
    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41971/41971-h/images/img014.jpg

    Now, I can ignore the weird looking hull of it but what caught my attention are those triangle sails on fore & aft mast... better to say those masts are only for holding the sails stretched from horizontal booms. Tilting axis goes from the top corner of the sail via the center of those horizontal booms, which makes it act as a square sail rig sorta. I haven't seen any sail boats with such rig before so am interested to know if there are any examples with such, as well as opinions on performance with such rig.

    Kind regards!
     
  2. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    Is there a reason you have not posted your location?
     
  3. 1J1
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    1J1 Senior Member

    What does that have to do with the subject here?
     
  4. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    An absurd hull with an equally absurd rig. The majority of the issues with the fore and mizzen should be obvious, but placing the masts is such a severe cantilever is self defeating.
     
  5. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    PAR,

    How did you see the images?

    It seems to me that most new posters don't give anything about themselves.
    I wonder why?

    Something strange is going on.

    IGNORE THIS POST
     
  6. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    kinda looks more like a "general diagram" for instruction or some other 'abstract drawing' than an actual boat design.
     
  7. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    Posting your location is a friendly gesture that may have bearing on your question such as where to buy something. Also, it is nice to know where someone lives and invites further discussion. Nothing sinister about asking where one lives. This is an international forum and many members have made friends all over the world.

    Par has given you the correct answer. That design will not work.........................Par helps a whole lot of us and he lives in Florida. If I ever get there, I will stop by to thank him. PS My name is Stan Rasor WELCOME.







    rasor
     
  8. 1J1
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    1J1 Senior Member

    @ rasorinc
    I'm from Russia, my English may not be perfect, I have a huge interest in ships & shipbuilding history, have ship spotting & ship modeling as my hobbies.


    PAR, thanks for your review of this concept, though since I'm not very well educated regarding the "sail boat theory", I'd like to have a little more thoughtful reply as to why that boat won't sail good if it was real?
    Based on that concept here's my view of such vessel if added more realism. Any obvious flaws in this arrangement without resorting to maths?
     

    Attached Files:

  9. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Thanks Stan and I'll have a beer waiting for 'ya when you arrive.

    1J1, welcome to the forum.

    Some of us, myself included often discount these sort of things out of hand, as we simply see the obvious stuff, right away, so toss it in the "can't take it seriously pile".

    For instance, let's say you make those two masts as you've shown them. They show at least 12 degrees of rake, so what do you think will happen as you harden the sheets (or even the halyards for that matter)? Yep, they're going to act like springs, rather than the compression posts they need to be. It's not sailboat theory, so much as engineering basics. Want to feel what this rig is like in reality? Replace a stemhead shackle with a length of bungee cord and go for a sail, to see how it works for you.

    Upchruchmr, I simply opened the direct JPG link. (> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41971/41971-h/images/img013.jpg <)
     
  10. 1J1
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    1J1 Senior Member

    I thought those fore- & mizzen masts resemble how the mast acts in aft rig arrangement since that one's also leaned towards the sails it stretches.
     
  11. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    The aft tilting fore mast might have some advantages .

    The luff wire would be longer and its the luff length that gets you to windward.

    Also the aft tilting fore mast might help tension the luff to p0int a bit higher.

    The location and tilt might allow the masts to be used for cargo hoisting.
     
  12. tom28571
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    tom28571 Senior Member

  13. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    Welcome to the forum,

    Even if the configuration details could be fixed, it is an obsolete design. trying sail it would be an exercise in frustration trying to manage all the rigging, duplicating old techniques, that are a lot of extra effort required a lot more crew to expose themselves to danger, just to operate a design based on yesteryear concepts.

    there is reason no modern sailboat uses such rigging configurations unless they are trying to duplicated a historic boat for nostalgia reasons or making a historic replica.

    You need to read some basic text books about modern yacht design. You can approximate traditional forms for appearance sake, but than use modern design techniques and rigging to make something that would be pleasing to the eye as a 'traditional' design, but would be a much better boat to own and operate.

    it is essentially a cartoon of a mix of old and new concepts. There is no reason to build such a boat.
     
  14. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    This isn't what I see. I see ridiculous standing rigging that shows no engineering understanding and sails of dubious utility, not to mention the hull profile is a joke (I'm trying to be kind). As has been previously pointed out, a few good books on sail design would help the OP's understanding as to why I find this an absurdity.

    In larger craft, extreme rake was quickly tried and abandoned. There was a time in the mid 19th century, this extreme rake was deemed "fast" but on the race course, this didn't pan out, plus the staying issues associated with these arrangements, killed the fad off pretty quickly.

    I recently completed a cat boat, which was an enlarged version of an old Chapelle drawing. It showed 9 degrees of mast rake and the client insisted this be how it was done, over my protests. Yep, it looked the part, jaunty as hell, but was all but impossible to sail in light air. The appendages were typical of the late 1800's and low aspect, so she had considerable helm pressure to boot. My solution, which was my original recommendation anyway, reduce the mast rake to 4 degrees. This eased helm pressure, and permitted light air effort without the spars fighting you. Unless you're an antique cat boat expert, you'd still think it was what it was.
     

  15. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I think you might find this video quite interesting:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_Xa8Q3dmcg&feature=player_embedded

    I posted this link at the trailing edge of this subject thread;
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-rig-pointing-questions-5991-2.html
    ...that address use to link to a number of interesting sites concerning this project,...but now seems to have faded from the internet scene,....such a shame. Perhaps they could be found in an internet archive site?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
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