High Performance MPX Foil/Self-righting Trimaran-The Test Model

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Vincent Prevost of VPLP on mainfoil power:
    1
    Downforce from main foil-- Fire Arrow,WOLF, Gitana 17, Banque Pop:

    I wrote to Vincent Prevost of VPLP about the Banque Pop capsize and he sent me a very detailed answer. One startling thing he said was that as far as he knew, Banque Pop lost their daggerboard foil the day before the capsize.
    Check it out below for more informative and interesting comments from the designer of only the second ULTIM tri to use the equivalent of the basic Fire Arrow Foil System.
    =================
    Here is a most gracious, detailed response from Vincent Prevost. (Thanks again for the suggestion, Dolfiman!).
    First, my question:
    Hi, I’m very interested in the foil systems being used by Banque Populaire and Gitana-particularly the main foil on the daggerboard. I saw a picture yesterday of BP upside down and noticed there was no foil on the daggerboard-I’m curious: was it removed due to damage or just to get it out of the way? Was it possible to use that foil to develop downforce and could it be used to prevent or slow down a capsize ? If the Ultim rules were changed could the flap be tied in to the autopilot in such a way that at the very beginning of a capsize the flap was moved max up to generate maximum downforce? Would there be any structural issues with this?

    Thank you for considering my questions-I greatly appreciate it!

    Take Care, Doug Lord

    =====================================================
    Vincent's response:
    ---
    Hello Doug
    thanks for your email relative to BP capsize
    As far as I know, they had lost the T of the board a day before.(bold emphasis dl)
    Considering the T board may push up or down for about 2.5 to 3 tons , the RM can be increased or decreased by 15 to 20% which is a lot in terms of overlaoding the platform and mast.
    In ocean racing world, we enter in a new era where , as for the Foiling Imoca 60, the righting moment of the boat is function of the dynamic forces generated by the foils
    It means that the skipper will have to sail taking into account these variations of RM caused by dynamics loads from the foils if he doesn't want to break the boat
    sensors , alarms have to be installed now to have the knowledge of the loads on the elements of structure impacted by RM variations
    So in theory ,for your last question, answer is yes to delay a capsize with 2 warnings:
    - increase the RM affects the designed structure of the boat , and ,

    - at the heel angle where the board is out the water, you brutally loose 20% of your righting moment
    So to be used being seriously informed and controlled (bold emphasis dl)


    hope that helps
    regards
    vincent

    =================================
    2
    ---VPLP on the daggerboard main foil:
    " On these big boats, when you ease a sail, it is a pain because it takes so long to grind it back in. But here you press a button and the angles of incidence change. And with the foil on the daggerboard you can use it to alter the flight according to the wind*. If it builds, rather than easing the sheet you increase the righting moment by increasing the angle and conversely, as it eases you can reduce it and let it fly more."
    * done 100% automatically on Fire Arrow/ WOLF with wand controlled main foil.(dl)
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    WOLF daughter of fire arrow
    Specifications

    Latest Update 2/17/19

    ==================
    WOLF specs(tentative) :
    LOA 14.8'
    Max Beam 16'
    CL ama hull to CL ama hull-14'
    Target weight 175-190lb
    SA-(mast length 24' all carbon wing mast)
    --upwind: 167 sq.ft
    --downwind: 267 sq.ft
    --max pressure before depowering/reefing: 1.79lb/sq.ft
    * NOTE-see bottom of this page for max pressure comparison with an F18.
    RM-max righting moment=4460ft.lb..

    ------------------------------------------------
    Advantages:
    1-Singlehander- Excellent upwind and downwind performance with 220lb crew. Minimum crew weight 120lb.
    2- Will foil in 5 knots of wind with 220lb crew .
    3-Carbon rotating wing mast, carbon cross arms and carbon foils.
    4-Retractable foils(from cockpit). Mainfoil retracts flush with bottom and tips are designed to not dig into sand. Rudder foil retracts above bottom. Ama foils retract above waterline when boat is level.
    5-Extremely comfortable sliding seat on each side. Allows crew to move 1.75' outboard very quickly.
    6-Uses the Fire Arrow Foil System(like Fire Arrow, Gitana 17, Banque Pop, Macif and Maserati)-- the same as the original system first used on the Test Model- except the larger boats use two rudder t-foils on each tack. WOLF has two UptiP ama foils-one used at a time-and one wand controlled mainfoil for very early takeoff and capable of substantial downforce- all working with a single rudder T-foil. Downforce can be virtually instantaneous adding RM in response to gusts.
    7-Foiling throughout the wind range -including very light air-the essence of 3D SAILING!
    8- Assy Spin/Screecher retracted under the front deck.
    9- Boat folds from max beam to trailerable width in about 4 minutes. No waterstays.
    10-Mid (wish)boom mainsheet so sheet is always in forward hand and extension tiller always in aft hand.
    11-Quickly self-draining cockpit-large scuppers with backflow flap.
    12- Planing ama hulls designed for incidental contact with water at speed and for inadvertent contact at slow speed.
    Adjustable angle of incidence of planing surface of each ama simultaneously. Angle of incidence of ama foil has to be changed when this is done. Planing surface starts at +4 degrees.
    Uses Two-Stage Amas-see attachments below. They consist of a planing ama hull(Stage One) coupled to a "curved piece"(Stage Two) that provides extra buoyancy in the event of a knockdown. Curved piece facilitates high dihedral crossarms which keep the crossarms clear of the water.
    13-Planing main hull.
    14- Aerodynamic surfaces added to forward and aft crossarms. Adjustable flaps added on rear cross each side. Jib foot and forward part of main foot to be sealed to deck.
    15- Adjustable crossarm dihedral for prototype to facilitate testing.
    [​IMG]

    -------
    ==================
    ---
    Memorable quote from JG Baker, Designer and Builder of the Monitor foiler in the 1950's:
    " The main need is to lower the wind velocities required for flying in order to increase the opportunities for high speed travel"

    ---VPLP on the daggerboard main foil:
    " On these big boats, when you ease a sail, it is a pain because it takes so long to grind it back in. But here you press a button and the angles of incidence change. And with the foil on the daggerboard you can use it to alter the flight according to the wind*. If it builds, rather than easing the sheet you increase the righting moment by increasing the angle and conversely, as it eases you can reduce it and let it fly more."
    * done 100% automatically on Fire Arrow/ WOLF with wand controlled main foil.


    ================
    ---
    Fire Arrow Foil System-first of its kind on any trimaran.
    Elements developed first by Fire Arrow include:
    1) the first trimaran in history to use UptiP ama foils,
    2) the first trimaran in history to use a single wand controlled main foil capable of downforce,
    3) the first trimaran in history to use Two Stage Amas.(see below for Two-Stage Ama pictures)*
    =======================================================
    Max pressure for F18 before depowering or reefing :

    1) The max pressure for an F18 based on 227 sq.ft. upwind SA, CE at 16.75', 2-180lb crew on trapezes and 5827.25 ft.lb. RM is 1.53 lb/sq.ft..
    ---

    2) Max pressure for WOLF with 167 sq.ft. upwind SA, CE at 14.92', one 220lb crew sitting in a comfortable sliding seat, and 4460 ft.lb RM* is 1.79 lb/sq.ft..
    *not including downforce automatically generated by the wand controlled main foil.

    ===========================================================
    *The Two Stage Ama Design offers a lot both Statically and Dynamically:
    1-Statically
    - the boat is sitting still and hit by a hand of God gust. It is theoretically possible that the boat could be knocked over with the mast horizontal but the two stage ama offers reserve buoyancy after the the ama hull itself is immersed by the immersion of Stage Two("curved piece") and yet it is not enough to fly the main hull. It is enough, however, to right the boat.
    2-Dynamically-The ama hull has two levels of dynamic vertical force:
    a. first and foremost the ama lifting foil that works from very low speed on up,
    b. Second, and a sort of back up at speed, is the planing hull design of the ama. To start with on Fire Arrow/WOLF, the planing surface only comes into contact with the surface at very low speed with the ama starting to fly before the main hull does. And when the boat is flying the ama performs as reserve lift during incidental surface contact at speed.
    *Also see page 191, post 2865 for more on the Two Stage Ama theory.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    ======================================================
    UptiP Ama Altitude Control-pictures A & B----
    Note that ama is flying before main hull-note ama flight altitude:

    [​IMG]

    Now that main hull is flying and speed and load are significantly greater than in "A" above, note that ama flight altitude is the same! And that's due to the ama UptiP foil design:
    [​IMG]
    =======================

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Gitana 17 Flying on the Most Advanced Trimaran Foiling System Ever:
    [​IMG]

    Fire Arrow Doing Exactly the Same Thing:
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Fire Arrow UptiP foil changes: the horizontal portion of the foil was changed:
    1-span increased
    2- chord increased and changed to include twist(wash-in) and incorporate the 15 degree intrinsic iFLAP

    Original:
    MPX assembled 2 004.JPG


    Final version:

    MPX ama + ama = cat --foil comparison 011 - Copy (2) - Copy.JPG

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    MPX---iFlap rough sketch.jpg


    iFLAP tip on final version--since changed to eliminate the iflap on one foil for testing:
    I-flap tip.JPG
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  5. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Congratulations to Team Maserati for their victory in the 2019 RORC Caribean 600 --third race win in a row!!!! The revolutionary foil system designed for them by Guillaume Verdier (and pioneered years earlier on Fire Arrow) is coming into its own.

    PS-for those interested there is video of the start showing how much better Maserati pointed and handled the rough water as compared to Argo.
    Unfortunately, the start for Maserati and Argo occurring two hours after the start of the other multihulls is not on the 600 site-it was yesterday and clearly illustrates how well the new foil system works in strong wind and big waves.....

    UPDATE: found the video on facebook: Royal Ocean Racing Club https://www.facebook.com/RoyalOceanRacingClub/videos/vb.114838938553051/435438890613534/?type=2&theater
    =====================================

    UPDATE--in my opinion it can't be stressed enough how significant the video above is, it clearly shows the advantage of the Fire Arrow Foil System version designed by Guillaume Verdier for Maserati in rough water-a fact that was also shown at the start of the Route du Rhum in November 2018.
    Unfortunately, in the RDR the structural strength of a couple of boats was not up to the capabilities of the foil system. But prior to the disasters the foil
    system was able to allow faster foiling in bigger waves than had ever been possible before!!
    -------------------------------------------
    Big news-check out the last post in the Gitana thread:
    Gitana 17-100' Trimaran Foiler-Launch 7/17/17 https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/gitana-17-100-trimaran-foiler-launch-7-17-17.58231/page-9
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  6. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    UPDATE:
    The story of "3D SAILING"--- A few years ago as I became more excited by foiling and its future and while I was building the first RC production sailing foiler ever(F3 see below), I came up with the idea for a trademark that I felt was a "high tech" description of foiling-"3D SAILING". My patent attorney filed for it and all seemed well until we both received a letter from representatives of North Sails who had been using the trademark "3D SAILS". Well, both marks were completely different in what they represented and North lost.That was very cool.
    Next in the saga of 3D SAILING was a letter from a lawyer in Beverly Hills, California offering me $1000 for the mark. I said no way but they didn't give up. Over about a two week period we haggled back and forth and finally I made an offer: I would sell it for $8,000. I didn't think there was a chance of them accepting but boy was I surprised when they did! It took some time but I finally found out that the Company that bought 3D SAILING was a giant Canadian boat builder-mostly powerboats. So as time went by I'd check on their product line expecting to see a new foiler.
    Years went by and no foiler from Bombardier.
    So a while ago I looked up the mark and it was expired! Unbelievably, they had done nothing with it and paid 8 grand for the privilege of doing that.
    So I asked my patent attorney if there was any reason I couldn't use the mark though I realized that I wouldn't have exclusive rights to it. He said to go ahead. I still think it is a great description of foiling and well worth using.

    F3 3D SAILING(2001) :

    Old video with a little F3 3D Sailing at the beginning in under a 5mph wind: (she did 12mph in a 5mph wind-top speed 18mph with me sailing-20+mph according to a customer.)


    F3 foiler.jpg
    F3 2016 in San Diego.jpg
    F3 from rc groups.JPG




    Fire Arrow 3D Sailing(2014) she did 10mph in a 5mph wind on day one of full foiling:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    From the Team Gitana Press Release today:
    The Ultimes are extraordinary machines, which are driving us all to push the envelope, whether it be on a competitive or technical level. The advances made with this new generation of multihulls are a reflection of this... To be a pioneer is about preparing the way forward and this journey inevitably involves a number of unknown elements, which we must accept in order to make progress. Success is a gradual process. To support us in this major technological challenge, I believe we've surrounded ourselves with the best people and, crucially, we've made sure that they are extremely motivated to work towards the common goal of developing a revolutionary boat.* Together with the boat's owners, we're convinced we're on the right track, and we're where we wanted to be in any case, but these things take time. Every time the Maxi gets out on the water is a step in the right direction. Since her launch, we've taken some giant leaps forward and there's still a huge amount to learn” explains Cyril Dardashti, director of the racing stable.
    *bold emphasis dl
     
  8. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Cyril Dardashti's comment(previous post) about the development of Gitana 17 is inspirational and I've been thinking a lot about it. Fire Arrow, using the same basic foil system as Gitana, Macif and Banque Pop, but years before they did is a revolutionary boat and that innovation will be passed on to WOLF that may become the smallest manned trimaran ever to use the system. The advantages of the Fire Arrow Foil System are perfect to apply to a small trimaran foiler and a small foiler with those features will have tremendous advantages over any currently produced sailing foiler. These are exciting times for small sailing foiler design!

    WOLF 14 conept model rig-8-7-18 003.JPG
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Fire Arrow and F3 mainfoil-partial span flap:

    F3 mainfoil- Max load-3lb on each of two mainfoils-vertical lift/downforce:
    F3 2015 San Diego Rich 4.jpg


    Fire Arrow mainfoil w/extended flap-still partial span- Max load-15.5lb
    vertical lift, Downforce 10lb:


    MPX Fire Arrow main foil with extended flap 003.JPG


    Fire Arrow mainfoil with experimental flap endplates:

    MPX Fire Arrow experimental flap endplates-8-26-14 004.JPG

    Full size aircraft with flap endplate(s) :

    Flap with endplate.png


    Fire Arrow mainfoil-unfinished:

    Fire Arrow mainfoil.JPG


    Fire Arrow mainfoil junction-chip on very tip happened when she was moving and hit an underwater rock:

    MPX Foil Junction 006.JPG

     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    They're all here-all using the SAME Basic Foil System!!!

    Banque Populaire flying Fa pix.jpg


    Macif flying-8-31-18.jpg


    MPX_Fire Arrow-3D SAILING-7-24-14 009 (2).JPG


    Gitana 17 very much like FA - Copy.JPG


    Maserati.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
  11. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Lifting Foil on Daggerboard--not on Sodebo?
    I watched the "unveiling" of the new Sodebo today . It has the cockpit ahead of the mast! Also has large UptiP foils on each ama. But what appears to be missing is the main ingredient of the Fire Arrow Foil System;the lifting foil on the daggerboard. I should mention that when Gitana 17 was first wheeled out she was missing the mainfoil as well. Based on the following quote from one of her designers Sodebo may yet use a mainfoil:
    From the latest Yacht Racing Forum:
    • Renaud Bañuls, Bañulsdesign, designing a new foiling Sodebo for Thomas Coville, and a number of foiling craft for weekend sailors: “After achieving foiling, the next big step is creating dynamic righting moment.”

    At any rate, I wrote to Martin Fischer, Guillaume Verdier, Vincent Prevost(VPLP), and Dolfiman(NA and friend) to ask if they had heard anything about this.
    We'll see what responses I get. I can't conceive of a big tri not using the main foil like Maserati, Gitana 17, Macif and Banque Populaire have.
    See below on why-tidbits on pages 2,3,4:
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I've heard back from both Martin Fischer , Vincent Prevost and Guillaume Verdier-Fischer and Prevost are on the Sodebo design Team. Dolfiman has responded in the Sodebo thread.
    1) Vincent--"This first version has not the appendages characteristics of a flying boat".
    2) Martin-- "to be seen. Can't say too much at this stage"
    3) Verdier-not his design-" not following what they do."

    My take, so far:

    This is not the complete foiling version of the boat. They're going sailing then after a while will set the boat up for full flying including the foil on the daggerboard.......

    See post 7 here:
    Sodebo Ultim 3 Foiling Trimaran https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/sodebo-ultim-3-foiling-trimaran.61627/#post-849427
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    A review of daggerboard lifting foils on all the boats using them as of 3/2/2019:
    ========================================================================
    From Fire Arrow/WOLF to the Fastest Fullsize Trimarans: Vertical Lift and Downforce:

    Fire Arrow main foil-capable of 50% increase in total RM with downforce-wand controlled lift with automatic downforce:
    [​IMG]

    WOLF main foil capable of 50% increase in total RM with downforce-wand controlled lift with automatic downforce:
    [​IMG]

    Gitana 17 mainfoil- manual/hydraulic flap controls lift and downforce:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Macif mainfoil -manual/hydraulic flap controls lift and downforce:
    [​IMG]

    Banque Pop mainfoil-I have always suspected that this picture was not an accurate representation of the final Banque Pop main foil. The new small picture(lower right) seems to show it complete and not much larger. The boats designer said the mainfoil was capable of producing 20% of the boats total RM with downforce. Manual/hydraulic flap control for lift and downforce:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Maserati mainfoil-no flap- AOI controlled by manual hydraulic rake of whole foil:
    [​IMG]
    ======================================


    --Maserati pitch-up during mainfoil lift test:
    [​IMG]



     
  14. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Mainfoil Control on Fire Arrow and WOLF:
    To accompany the mainfoil review in the previous post this video shows how the wand controls the flap resulting in lift and downforce on the Fire Arrow and WOLF.
    The foil is automatically controlled maintaining a preset angle of heel for the whole boat. The mainfoils on the big tri's are controlled by manual adjustment of an electro/hydraulic system. Automatic control is illegal, for the time being, on the big boats:
     

  15. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,092
    Likes: 247, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    WOLF daughter of Fire Arrow
    --view from above:
    WOLF 14 concept aero  7-15-18 003.JPG

    --view from below:
    WOLF 14 concept model-foils-7-10-18 006.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.