Help me find a boat: 26ft planing centerboard wood sailboat?

[griffinb]

The sandbagger link that Rumars posted was to my blog. also pieces about Renjollen and Raters in there.

Ben Fuller, classic boat expert and former head of the Mystic Seaport museum, has written that they towed a sandbagger at speed and it just dug a bigger hole for itself rather than looking anything like planing. Like the Sydney 18 Footers until about 1930, which had a similar hull shape, they are a displacement hull. Some of the replica Historical 18s went to the USA to race the replica sandbaggers and the 18s won fairly easily. Those Historical 18s would probably rate about 200+ PHRF from what I can see and looking at their comparative speed, but I've only sailed on or against them a couple of times.

The problem is that with the technology of the "classic" era it was very hard to make a planing boat of 26' LOA. The Flying 20 has a fairly shallow keel and I think it's the closest you'll get, apart from a Thames Rater. I'm assuming you can find a 26' Thames Rater; some are midway between Half Raters (about 23' LOA) and One Raters (about 27-28ft LOA) from what I can recall.

I don't know why they won't let chine boats into the Spirit of Tradition; Stars, the earlier and bigger Gardner "Departure", Van de Stadts' 1949 Zeevalk, some Renjollen, some Aussie classics and cruisers like the Rudder magazine Sea Bird had chines.

I will keep an eye out for 26' Thames A Raters.
The closest I've found so far is the Raven class. Wood, centerboard, planes, pre-1950, but only 24'3" loa.

 

[griffinb]

Legend has it that when the sandbagger trend collapsed on the east coast some talented designers went west and made planning sailboats that raced on lake Winnebago. What you are looking for is the grandfather of the E scow.

If I could find a 26' wood E scow that might do it...

 

[griffinb]

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A wood 110 modified out of class by Tony DeLima and Forte. It has a lifting keel, which may solve your centerboard requirement. It is plenty old, I recall the original sail number as under 100, so maybe 1939.
How is LOA measured? does it include the fixed bow sprit? if so you are in.
If not, 110s are 23"11 3/4" LOA, so you will have to create a strap on clipper bow to make it long enough.
This boat is for sale, but it has things like carbon fiber mast and boom and keel strut. So the scrutineers may not be pleased because you will definitely be skirting the intent of the rules.
SHC

The link for this 110 is already removed.
LOA is measured as : "Length of hull, excluding bowsprits and boomkins"
http://www.classicyachts.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/CRF-Data-Input-Definitions_201210.pdf

 

[griffinb]

This is not vintage, but may qualify for spirit of tradition. 26ft 2.9in (8m) long, centreboard, plywood, spruce rig. Available new from: Occasionen - Bootsbau Stefan Züst https://holzboot.ch/holzboot-occasionen/

I don't think reverse/inverted bows are allowed for Spirit of Tradition boats.
Pretty close though. Centerboard, the right length, the right performance, wood (though technically it should be cold-molded instead of plywood)

I'm still hoping to find, in this order:
1. a used boat
2. a historic design I could have built
3. a new Spirit of Tradition build (if I do this, I would probably start with a clean sheet for the design)

 

[Skyak]

I don't think reverse/inverted bows are allowed for Spirit of Tradition boats.
Pretty close though. Centerboard, the right length, the right performance, wood (though technically it should be cold-molded instead of plywood)

I'm still hoping to find, in this order:
1. a used boat
2. a historic design I could have built
3. a new Spirit of Tradition build (if I do this, I would probably start with a clean sheet for the design)

The E scow design dates to 1924.
I did a quick browse of Craig's List around Oshkosh -only a 16ft woody free to pickup. If you put a WTB add in the area I think your odds would be better than 50%. You could contact the class society. I think they would be sufficiently amused by your plan to set you up. Legend has it that the sand baggers didn't just leave the east coast, they were run out with disputed gambling claims and the scows extreme speed was motivated by the desire to prove they were right.

 

[griffinb]

The E scow design dates to 1924.
I did a quick browse of Craig's List around Oshkosh -only a 16ft woody free to pickup. If you put a WTB add in the area I think your odds would be better than 50%. You could contact the class society. I think they would be sufficiently amused by your plan to set you up. Legend has it that the sand baggers didn't just leave the east coast, they were run out with disputed gambling claims and the scows extreme speed was motivated by the desire to prove they were right.

I just posted a WTB on criagslist:
26ft wood sailboat - wanted - by owner - sale https://eauclaire.craigslist.org/wan/d/oshkosh-26ft-wood-sailboat/7472611547.html

and I just emailed the E Scow class association.

 

[Will Gilmore]

"Length of hull, excluding bowsprits and boomkins"

Transom mounted rudders excluded, as well?

 

[Will Gilmore]

Have you looked at the Cap Vert?

SailboatData.com - CAP VERT Sailboat https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cap-vert
First built in 1959.
She looks like a good possibility, if you gut her interior and lighten her up by a few hundred pounds.

 

[Steve Clark]

Your best bet is to find a wood E Scow. They are only 2 feet longer than your specification, are have centerboards and are definitely planing boats. The wood ones are all old enough to be cheap, but the class is active so good used sails will be available as well as scow specific replacement parts. The Scows are certainly one of the highly refined wooden sailing machines and aren't fairly represented in the classic boat circuit. I haven't sailed scows much but what I have done told me that they are less atrocious in waves than reported. Or maybe it's just that we are more familiar with light flat boats and what was unacceptable slamming in the 1940s isn't unacceptable anymore. Certainly the Scows are sailed on "Inland Lakes" that are as big as Nantucket Sound and which are all known by the local grey beards to have "bad chop." I don't think the limit is the design, but how they were built: thin white cedar planks screwed to small closely spaced ribs.

I sailed a wood 1950s Johnson on Cayuga Lake in the late 70's. We weren't racing, but I was the designated driver for what Maureen called "raising the thrill threshold." When it was blowing NW20+ and the lake had its 30 mile fetch working, it was game on and I wasn't encouraged to back off. In fact it was just the opposite. It was akin to driving a limousine street rod as fast as you could down a mountain road with all your friends partying in the back and Steely Dan pumping on the loudest ******* stereo you have ever heard. Tom Dean had done a great job rebuilding her at least once, and would look back at me from the jib sheets with the "I hope you know what your doing but do it again look in his eyes." The bottom sometimes looked like a waterbed. So I think two diagonal plies of Western Red Cedar would do great things to keep the basket of thin planks and small ribs in close proximity.
You will never run square down wind in a seaway without stuffing the nose deep enough in a wave to regret it, sailing hot angles isn't a choice.

You will want to double up on the shock cord and line diaphragm pumps and make sure you have more flotation in the bow and stern than the several hundred empty beer cans I convinced myself would be helpful if I really stuck it in a ditch. Probably the boat you will find will have some problems, so I would consider laminating a few plies of diagonal Western Red Cedar Veneer to the outside of the hull. Chances are that the increase in displacement will offset the increase in weight and the hull will be significantly more robust.

Other than that, I don't think you have a lot of options because planing boats were pretty limited to dinghy size in the classic period...mostly because of materials and techniques. The 26' LOA minimum may be an intentional strategy to keep the foxes out of the hen house.
SHC

 

[Skyak]

E scow newsletters are very informative.
REPORTER Magazine Archives - National Class E Scow Association (e-scow.org)
There is a very nice history of how the class developed.
Summer_1977_Vol_13_No_1_1167807007.pdf
I would anticipate difficulty getting approved to race and be ready with an indisputable period correct design. The designs official centennial birthday is 2024. There should be a replica campaigned anywhere that will let it race to celebrate.

or even better
Vic Carpenter Racing E-Scow for sale | Port Carling Boats - Antique & Classic Wooden Boats for Sale

28ft modern kit cruiser
The Sailscow range has expanded with a 28-foot Optimum... which has everything of a great! – A revolution in yachting

 

[Skyak]

I found one, and it is close to my relatives. I must have ridden my bike right past it.
1969 johnson e scowl sailboat for sale in Iowa (sailboatlistings.com)

 

[griffinb]

Have you looked at the Cap Vert?
SailboatData.com - CAP VERT Sailboat https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cap-vert
First built in 1959.
She looks like a good possibility, if you gut her interior and lighten her up by a few hundred pounds.

No, I had never seen the Cap Vert. She checks a lot of boxes, but doesn't look fast. I doubt she would plane? Also, none available for sale.

 

[griffinb]

I found one, and it is close to my relatives. I must have ridden my bike right past it.
1969 johnson e scowl sailboat for sale in Iowa (sailboatlistings.com)

The wood e-scows are at least readily available. This one too:
melges E Scow sailboat for sale in Colorado https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/92974
So, we know of a 24' planing centerboarder (Raven) from pre-1950, and a 28'er (E Scow), but none that are 26'?

So this is my "plan"?
1. buy a wood E Scow (easy)
2. chop 24" off the length? Probably the stern. It doesn't look like it would interfere with the mainsheet traveler or the rudder.
Maybe I only need to chop 13"-19", and I can get the new LOA rounded down to 26'.
3. Somehow re-register the boat with a new length? Any advise on this?
4. Somehow convince the race committee that even though the boat is registered as 26', they should still let me race as a classic design. Any advise on this?
5. We skipped the part on guessing how terrible it would be, trying to sail the boat with 2ft missing in the stern...

I'm allowed to sheath the boat in fiberglass, so I'm not worried about strength/stiffness.
I would certainly add flotation. I'm thinking air bladders inside the hull.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Losing 24" in the stern would have the effect of shifting the CE aft, along with the CLR. Probably wouldn't change her sailing characteristics too dramatically. Their relative positions would be unaffected. However, you might want to add a little more weight aft, to replace both the weight you took off and the reduced lever arm utilized by crew to counter the driving force aloft. She might stuff her nose just a little more than usual. I would think experimentation would be the best way to learn what was right.

 

[griffinb]

Losing 24" in the stern would have the effect of shifting the CE aft, along with the CLR. Probably wouldn't change her sailing characteristics too dramatically. Their relative positions would be unaffected. However, you might want to add a little more weight aft, to replace both the weight you took off and the reduced lever arm utilized by crew to counter the driving force aloft. She might stuff her nose just a little more than usual. I would think experimentation would be the best way to learn what was right.

Center of Effort (CE) is defined by the rig, which I hadn't yet thought to change, so CE would not move, correct?
Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) would actually move forward, because that last 2ft of stern would no longer contribute, correct?
If CE does not move, and CLR moves forward, then weather-helm would be increased, correct?

If I have to chop 24" off the stern, I could try to compensate by removing as much weight from the bow as possible, to maintain static for/aft trim? I could remove the retractable bow spirit, since it's not allowed for the classic race anyway? I wonder if the weight shift could be offset by crew moving aft? Maybe add a trapeze, since I don't care about being class legal?