Everglades Challenge: the Right Boat?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    For a long time now I've thought the Fire Arrow was the right boat. It is my number one priority but considering the hole I'm in financially and physically it will be tough to get done.
    Since I've seen the Quant 23, I've thought those were the best foils for shallow water because they draw less than any other foil system I've run into and can run almost on the surface-in fact they are designed to be a planing surface as well as a foil. The Q23 itself is not a good boat for the EC IF you take it with the keel-but that could be changed. A trimaran or maybe a tunnel hulled scow(like Dominion-not the M20) using Welbourns Q23 foils might be the best particularly if it was designed to foil in very light air*. I'm convinced that a careful use of foils designed to work in shallow water could work well....
    What do you think would be the right boat?

    *The company producing the Q23 is banking on the importance of being able to foil in light air-the production boat will foil in around 5 kts of wind. And the prototype already foils in stronger wind with very shallow draft main foils.
     
  2. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    I have seen a few of these races now from the launch beach. Sometimes the conditions are a light breeze from the east or west or north and sometimes the wind is blowing so hard from the wrong direction(south) the boats can hardly leave the beach. That must be considered in the strategy.
     
  3. Tom.151
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    Tom.151 Senior Member

    Hello Doug, sorry to hear you've joined the old man with physical limitations club.
    Interesting train of thought you've got going here.
    In no particular order and specifically to the EC requirements...
    It's likely that first to finish boats come from those boats that race the outside track. Between the inlets for reaching checkpoints and Florida Bay they need very shoal draft configuration for lots of miles and good way making in shallow chop - as demonstrated by the historically good finishes of skiff-style monos like the B&B boats and occasionally beach cats like the Tornado.

    In this race it seems that 1 foot draft can be too much for many parts of the course - including the inlets.
    So maybe if foils are going to work effectively they may need to be able to contribute within the severe draft restrictions - such a planing foil as you described might be a pathway.

    A FireArrow with planing (flat bottom) amas in flat-ish shallow water would be a good one. Adding a foil that could transition from submerged lifting to surface planing (less than 6" draft) would be able to run the outside chop by elevating the hulls above the wave drag as well as transition the heavy chop shoals of the inlets in planing mode sure sounds like a useful combination.

    The Quant23 hull shape you know is one of my favorites, as it makes (with out the keel and ballast) a very shoal; draft configuration possible especially for the Florida Bay shallows which can be so very much a tight channel, twisty/turning route that can be a relatively low speed section - but then the Quant23 never did have this type of requirement in mind.
    Personally, for the EC, I consider the Dominion/tunnel hull type to be at a disadvantage as far as the "minimum draft" aspect. It's not uncommon that weather conditions (extended prevailing winds leading up to the event can essentially drain the water out of Florida bay, requiring crew to evacuate and tow the boat. When the boat is flat, AFAIK the tunnel type will usually give more draft for the same displacement.

    Whenever I get to thinking EC-friendly boats for myself I end up with a true planing trimaran much like the planing-specific Joe Dobler 19' Triad -or- a Zipper/Quant scow type with twin vertical leeboards in pivoting cases (to give control over the CLR).

    Much of the EC successes (over time anyway) come from having bullet-proof simplicity -- allowing the crew performance to be maintained for the full length of the course.

    Going back to the next evolution....
    Can you imagine what a "planing-or-foiling" board might look like?

    How would you deploy it so that it would operate in the full range from "planing at the surface" to lifting foil able to get the hull elevated several feet?

    Cheers, TomH
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Welbourn Foils on a Tri

    Tom, thank you for your very thoughtful comments!
    I'm about half way thru building a test model of a "scow" like Dominion with what are ,essentially, cat hulls. I designed it to the same displacement as the scaled down Q23 and the hull-only draft at 23' with three people on board is 8"-which is a bit more than the Q 23 but it may not be too much scaled down to 18 or 20'. It will use foils similar to those on Hugh's boat.
    I've been thinking a lot lately about a trimaran between 16 and 20' LOA with a maximum beam of 8'. Now, compared to the 22' beam of Fire Arrow that's narrow. The cool thing about it is if Hugh Welbourns Q23 main foils were used the effective beam under sail would be much larger as would be the RM due to the foil lift being so far outboard of the lee hull. And they could retract to an 8' beam for rowing. By using a planing main hull like the Fire Arrow the draft would be around 6-8" loaded with the foils retracted.
    The Welbourn foils are 100% automatic and are designed for a relatively low flight altitude and a shallow draft at static. On the proposed tri the draft with foils deployed would be around 18".But like the Q23, the tri would sail well with the foils retracted because it would have a daggerboard or centerboard that ,even when mostly retracted, would provide lateral resistance.
    Here's what I'm thinking:
    1) The boat would be designed to foil in as little as 5kts of wind and foil very well in stronger wind. The Q23 type foils give the boat tremendous extra RM and also act to stabilize the boat in big waves.
    2) For the EC the boat could be over 20' for two people or under 20' for a single crew.
    3) For the EC, the rig would be easily reefed and the boat easily righted by the crew.
    4) For the EC, the boat would be able to be rowed and with the foils retracted max beam would be about 8'.
    --
    EC or no EC, the shallow draft and very effective Welbourn foils could be used on small trimarans to make a high performance boat with a road legal beam so there would be no folding, unfolding or assembly/disassembly!
    I'm going to learn more about these foils with the model but I think they have tremendous potential.

    Pictures,L to R- 1-4 Dominion 2-HW-test model, 5-Q23 foil at static, 6-Q23 foil acting as a fully submerged foil, 7-Q23 foil acting as a high aspect planing surface:
    Click on image for best view:
     

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  5. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    I think my 650 would suit the Challenge okay. The idea is a semi-planing float shape with the able-to-be lifted L foils going through the flat sections would be very fast and safe. The quite deep T rudder, because of the slotted transom (see changed setup in second photograph) would have to be removed for shallows and an alternative less deep, maybe without the T, fitted as a replacement. Would be a quick job; maybe have to stop for a couple of minutes to implement. Means carrying two rudders ... but so what? The main hull dagger would of course also be lifted to draw only a few cms.
    And in deeper waters with all foils down ... would be few boats that would even get close to you?
     

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  6. pogo
    Joined: Mar 2010
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    pogo ingenious dilletante

    Planing in, better on shallow waters ?
    See WIGs , Skimboards, record-breaking Surfboards in shallow canals in France or the shallow beach in Weymouth , and the very fast Kitesurfers in about 10cm of water.
    After my experience planing in ground-effect begings at about a waterdepth of about BWL. and at speeds under the hump.
    Planing in ground effect needs much less power ( wind) than planing in deep waters, so it it also much faster.
    It is possible to plane over waterdepths of less than hull's static draft !
    I' ve practised that few times, under these circumstances ( less than 35cm for our 35 footer) the only problem is control/ steering,
    we did it with the sails.
    The max. V in lightwinds we ever reached were 11kn in 4 kn TWS ; waterdepth about 70% of BWL, Depl. 2.2 m3 , SA 65sqm , main and screacher ( today named code 0)


    Planing, no planing in ground-effect on foils ? Retractable foils and rudder ....
    Lewis Carol:
    "Ich hätte dies noch viel komplizierter machen können" sagte die Rote Königin voller Stolz.

    Doug,
    Better optimize the hulls for planing ( see Quant 23 , also able to plane when heeled) use a daggerboard , or a forgiving centerboard ( see DFs) and a forgiving transom-hung kick-up daggerrudder ( see pix here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/planing-catamaran-30415-4.html )
    The hullshape of your Dominion model is not suited for planing, it' a shape for (fast) deplacement mode only.
    Going fast over shallow waters with a fast deplacement hull one needs a very , very high LWL/BWL. Shallow waters will limit even a ratio of 14 down to under humpspeed, the boat will squat.

    The secret for planing lies in giving a hull as much positive angled planing area as possible, not only when the boat sails levelled, but also when the boat is heeled.
    Her lies the reason for bluff entry at the bow sections and the beamy transom---chines make it possible ; no rocker when heeled.
    See Pierre Rolland or Julien Marin designs like Malango, Django or the masterpiece of a max. planable sportsboat , the Seascape 27.....
    Between 0 and 25 degrees they offer the water flat bottomed hulls with nearly no rocker -- hulls for planing.at a wide range of heeling
    See Quant 23 , the bathtub mini-transat , and the megascow who's name i forgot.
    ( by the way ---when those beamy boats are heeled more than 25degrees on upwind courses , their LWL/ BWL ratio comes close to that of a cat.)

    Have some looks at the chined seascape 27 .
    Note the lines on the prototype for judging which mode......
    Note the bluff entry . the max.BWL is very far forward positioned, etc, etc.


    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NQQlzGx4B1I/maxresdefault.jpg
    http://www.blur.se/images/seascape27-14-5.jpg
    http://www.yacht.de/typo3temp/pics/7_3d47d56642.jpeg
    http://www.zeilen.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Seascape-superfoto.jpg
    Compare with the " planing plank of a scow" ; "paracat"
    http://www.blende64.com/typo3temp/yag/10/15_yacht_Quant23_0639_1002_5638b67e943.jpg
    Compare w. race winning minitransat ( bathtub hull; " parascow")
    http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/minitransat/yandy132354.jpg
    http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/minitransat/yandy132357.jpg

    The latest and promising " wonder" following this design school is the wanna be OD racer/cruiser W1DA 33.
    Please click the pix for seeing the " plank " . Note the tuberkel-rudders.
    http://whitehouseyachtdesign.co.uk/?projects=w1da-33-ocean-one-design











    pogo
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC-the right boat?

    ---------------
    Pogo, I think it is at least as suitable as an F16 Blade which I have watched plane. But it doesn't matter since the full size version would foil in very light air(4.4-5 knots TWS) -it would foil before it would reach planing speed. The foils would work in very shallow water. But the Dominion 2-HW is not specifically designed for the EC: the foils for the trimaran I proposed for the EC would work in even shallower water and the main hull would be a relatively wide planing hull(like the Fire Arrow main hull). The D2 model and the EC tri will use the Welbourn foils that can behave as a foil or as a high aspect(wide) planing surface.

    The trimaran main hull would be similar to this one:
    click-
     

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  8. rberrey
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    rberrey Senior Member

    So how do you come up with the "right boat" on a forum with designers and sailors who can't or won't agree on design and concept ? To me the sprite of the challenge is a camp cruiser . Whether it is a mono , cat , or foiling tri , it needs to accommodate a crew of 1 or 2 with basic camping needs for up to 8 days . So to get the right boat , why can't the designers on the forum either working together , or alone design such a boat ? Let the forum members vote on the designs , place them on the forum as free , then build ,and have a team compete in the challenge . I would be more than happy to donate a couple sheets of foam and a gallon or so of epoxy , even have a couple extra Anderson standard # 8 winches .
     
  9. pogo
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    pogo ingenious dilletante

    Perhaps one can compare foiling in shallow waters with flying an airliner in the canyons of Manhattan, not knowing the streets' widths.
    I think that skimming over the streets' surfaces without any wingspan at all is a much better idea.

    pogo
     
  10. Steve Clark
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    The purpose of WaterTribe is to encourage the development of boats, equipment, skills, and human athletic performance for safe and efficient coastal cruising using minimal impact human and wind powered watercraft based on kayaks, canoes, and small sailboats."

    ~ Chief, February 2000
    This is just about the best mission statement for small boat designers I can imagine.

    OH Rogers and Jeff Linton are not dumb. Spawn is pretty well thought out for this mission and based on having actually done the race several times.
    From what I have gleaned from interviewing others, Some form of real shelter is pretty key. On can get very very cold, and simple outerwear often isn't enough to get you warm enough to rest. Rest is key.
    I had thought about this venture and have constructed a modified sailing canoe, which will row very fast and sail with Laser like speed, but I think I would struggle as Day 2 turned into Day 3, particularly if single handed.
    I then thought that I should convert Patient Lady 4. She is 25' long 14' wide and the platform weighs only 350 lbs or so. With some good paddles she would paddle really well. That way I could get it over with really fast.
    I envisioned some wet suit material sleeping bags that would let the guy off watch shelter on the high side in some warmth and comfort.
    But also would assure that I was trying to pick my way across Florida Bay in the dark.
    Which seemed like a bad idea.
    SHC
     
  11. rberrey
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    rberrey Senior Member

    I think the Cruso trimaran checks off a lot of the box,s as far as a platform . I didn't see wt or speed listed , so those may be issues in winning , but not in competing .
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC: the right boat?

    I would only be interested in a fast boat.To go thru the effort and training I would want a shot at winning overall. First thing is a list of Class 5 and 4 winners and times for five years:

    1) 2010
    -Class 5-Tornado-1day 2 hrs
    -Class 4-Sea Pearl 21-2 days 10hrs
    --
    2) 2011
    -Class 5-SewSew-super tri-singlehanded-1 day 16 hrs
    -Class 4- Core Sound 20-2 days
    --
    3) 2012
    -Class 5-Tornado-2 days 7 hrs
    -Class 4 20'balanced lug rig Jim Michilak design-5days 17 hrs
    --
    4) 2013(won by Class 4)
    -Class 5- Mystere 4.3 cat-2days 10 hrs
    -Class 4-Core Sound 20 2days
    --
    5) 2014
    -Class 5-Sew Sew super tri-1day 11hrs
    -Class 4-Frankenscott(same guys sailing the Tampa Bay 22 this year)
    2days 12 hrs
    --
    6) 2015 no results
    --
    7) 2016-won by Class 4 "Spawn"-Tampa Bay 22 designed specifically for this race by OH Rodgers. Crewed by three. 1day 12 hours-a monohull record,I think.
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  14. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Doug, you and I could team up on the Sid650; what a savage and lethal team combination that would be? - but you have to lose weight ... because the 650 is a small boat and I doubt you would fit down the hatch.
    There you are, I do all the building and boat tuning here in Auckland and you pay for the shipping of the 650 to Florida. We can't lose - do the course in less than a day? No?
     

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  15. rberrey
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    rberrey Senior Member

    That,s the boat Doug . Remember Gary you will have to carry , push , pull , or roll it at some point . And if you don't make it in less than a day , you will have to sleep on it .
     
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