Diesel Electric Conversions - Are Systems Available

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by Barron, Sep 25, 2009.

  1. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair


    Dear Sir,

    boatdesign is a boat forum

    Talk less of me, more of boat, more of technical facts to contest the elements you may disagree with.

    I' sure ...you can :D
     
  2. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    kistinie,
    Your persistent quest for the perpetual engine is in the realms of fantasy land, not boat design forum where conservative thinking is applied in the context of proven reliability and durability... Your quest to derive 10hp from a metaphorical fart delivered by a cow in a paddock a mile away is not a topic relevant to this forum except in http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/grumpy-old-bathplug-raves-21157-84.html#post312484 , http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/op...-we-need-few-laughs-14472-205.html#post312525 or some self started thread in the open forum (dungeon region of this website)... There you may get lucky and find a 'frustrated mad genius', who has developed something that reaches toward your impossible dream... Good luck... :D:eek::D:?::D:!::D
     
  3. mark775

    mark775 Guest

    Too much red mercury, perhaps?
     
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  4. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    :?: I thought it was "white" mercuric oxide that destroyed aluminium very quickly?
     
  5. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Did i ever spoke on time of perpetual engine ?
    No.

    Is there proven reliability and durability in an electric engine ?
    Yes.

    10 Hp from a cow ?
    Sorry i do not understand the image.


    'frustrated mad genius'
    Is it the way you see the others you do not understand ? Whaao !


    Constructive thinking, as you say, is to drastically raise motors, charging, and storage efficiency.
    PMBL motors, the finest today's tech, is lying on partially false equations.
    This means these motors can certainly be improved a lot.


    An example with this French hydrogenerator :

    WATT AND SEA

    Variable pitch on race version - Fix for consumer model
    7 kilos, very low drag, 1000W nominal, limited to 500W by electronic
    Drag on a 60 feet racer = Drag of additional 300 litres of diesel aboard so approx 0.1 Knt
    Inside is a
    LEROY SOMER electric motor based on a quantum, Maxwell equations, approach i guess.
    As you can see, from your PC fan to the race hydrogenerator, efficiency increase of all new electromagnetic BL motors is a fact.
    Development key for new modern electric motors is quantum physic.


    And the song is the same for chargers and batteries
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  6. baeckmo
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Location: Sweden

    baeckmo Hydrodynamics

    Fine, so get it done now. Gimme a call when you're finished. Until then, stand by in the shadows under your stone!
     
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  7. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    If you cannot "handle" tongue in cheek and persist with dreaming an impossible dream, DO IT and document it here - - When you have it complete and reliably working..., Until then accept advice and stfu for a while... :!::!::D:D:p:p:eek:
     
  8. WestVanHan
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: Vancouver

    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    There used to be a guy Fast Electric Yachts (feys.org) using asynchronous AC Siemens traction motors/gens.

    Sounded great,everything was industrial,but the liquid cooled controllers with many circuit boards etc made me wonder if I'd be DITW when a microscopic transistor failed.

    With the $100k price tag (installation extra) even if the 30% claimed fuel savings were true (which i doubt) I'd have had to circumnavigate twice to break even.

    So I bought 2 brand new Cummins 6BTs (with transmissions) for $6500 each.

    If one has monstrous house loads,maybe.But my Kubota gen set used half a litre an hour.
     
  9. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    I used to work with French,--- it was the most difficult part of the job. Some kind of Kinder garden training would have helped.

    And they talk funny too.
     
  10. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    French? Huh?
     
  11. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    I am working on it.
    The phase one of my project is based on Lead batteries for mainly cost reason but not only, PMBL motor and generator, as well as on aboard electricity need reduction by canceling non compulsory item that can be replaced by manual equipments, like anchor winch or semi mechanical like autopilot connected to a windvane to lower amps needed. Wasted heat that cannot be avoided is re-used for another need.

    95% of energy electric devices sold today for marine use are obsolete technology and i do not find this acceptable.

    Just take simple example of lead batteries.
    Try to find a boat battery charger, solar, alternator or dock, equipped with pulsed desulfating function. Answer is close to nothing also since 1940 we know it can triple battery life and increase initial capacity on new batteries (Submarine nazi technology made with coils and mechanical oscillator)

    For many years, my truck, my sailing boat, my 2 antic cars and my summer house not connected to network, are using batteries i get at the waste reception center for 3€/Ton

    Does this talk enough to you ?
    To me it does.

    So to sump up how i see electric propulsion :
    Simplification (less parts)
    Improved magnetic design of motors/generators
    Co generation
    Lightness
    Increase efficiency of all other loads

    With current available technology, electric motors are only realistic on LIGHT SAILING BOAT or ultra light day boats.
    Is it the case of you example ?

    Now about the microscopic transistor failing let me smile about it.
    Last month a friend gave me for the day to go fishing his 20' White shark boat equipped with a nice like new (6 month) 300HP VERADO...
    Computer said 4500 Rpm, 95 liters/hour and GPS 17 Knts...
    Mariner is still looking for the problem
    Nasty transistors !

    Be honest 95% of ICE are based on electronic controllers, so this drawback of electronic reliability is general for both, electric and thermal motors but with one big difference. On an electric engine, only ONE controller is enough and with Sensor-less controllers even brittle piezzo position captors are avoided.
    How many captors and controllers on a 300HP Verado ?

    I'm sure that the day you will talk french, it will be very funny too :)
     
  12. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    The KEY issue remains, making the electricity with a super lightweight device (genset) and effectively storing it (BMS and battery)...

    Torqeedo is about the most reliable electric motor system at present... I have not found better for my needs yet...

    If you demand diesel or some other veg-oil as fuel, the WEIGHT factor is not good, (I recall going through all this once before but repeating will not hurt), 6000 Watts at 60V dc (peak) will have a mass of around 110~125KG (diesel engine and alternators) OR MORE...

    Basic BMS for lead acid system batteries is about 2KG (and that includes AGM and spiral wound heavy duty batteries) - - Batteries sufficient for 1 hour 40% discharge driving 2 Torqeedo R4.0 'outboard motors' - some 480kg less if you are content to use 4000 to 5000 Watts or less direct driving your motors from the genset... (about 2000 W each or one at near full power... I am still using a 22hp diesel engine (in my case a 722cc Kubota 3 cyl engine... generally reliable, minimal "hi-tech" electronics in this system...

    I am not interested in discussing autopilot or other electronic navigational aids except to suggest that wind-vane is not appropriate on a high speed (relative to a cruising mono) cat or trimaran - When you cruise you will become aware of the wind-vane steering disadvantages...

    Seek out off the shelf stuff (not necessarily marine specialised products) that will adapt and retain dependability and reliability... When cruising there is no second chance when an untimely and nasty weather event arises to **** up your comfortable lifestyle...

    The reason for nothing much new since 1940 is most cruising yacht owners prefer dependable reliability... It is the marina jockeys that have the hi-tech stuff that lasts a couple of hours (up to the maximum fuel range anyway)... or can afford triple redundancy...
     
  13. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Full aluminium diesel 7 Kw = 35 Kg - 500$ from Asia, much more everywhere else, matter of taste
    Generator/motor PMBL + controller 6Kw = 20 Kg - 1000$
    Belt Pulley anc. = 10 Kg - 100$ to 400$

    65Kg for 6Kw is possible today from 1600$, air cooled being the cheapest and the most reliable.
    Price can go up with a Gillier Pantone like water injection, but fuel saving will pay for the over cost, with the benefit of lower emissions.



    This 2.8KW/30Kg Hyunday invertor is based on a 144cc/3.8hp@5500rpm engine but is 220 or 110VAC so straight battery connection is impossible

    So Sadly, for the moment home made is the only possible choice a modern generator at a standard consumer price.

    This fact is incredibly chocking me as generator are for areas where electricity is missing so where you are likely to have batteries.
    Incorporating a direct lead battery connection for 48V applications would rocket the sale of such items . Boats, houses, light vehicles
    48V (56 charging) /50 Amp electronic is a 350$ PMBL controller working in regeneration mode instead of the 220ac invertor


    About wind vane i use to have the opinion you currently have, but looking closer at the question, even for a over 15Knt cruising trimaran, it can work much better than expected. But this is another subject.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  14. Kay9
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Location: Central Coast Oregon US.

    Kay9 1600T Master

    Um, if you use an air cooled motor at sea you can set the life expectancy at 1 hour to 2 months.

    1 hour if a wave washes on deck into the motor, 1 month if it dosnt.

    Air cooled belt drive is NOT the MOST reliable. It is IN FACT the MOST UNRELIABLE way to produce generated electricity.

    Keel intercooled direct coupled is by far more reliable. Espically when placed in a dry engine compartment.

    Also I think your chinese diesel engine prices are off a bit. No way your getting a 7 KW diesel engine for $500. You might be getting the 1.5 KW for that price.

    K9
     

  15. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Adriatic sea

    CDK retired engineer

    I really hate to admit this, but a few years ago I bought a 7 KW chinese replica of a Yanmar for approx. $400 on Ebay. There even was a firefighter's water pump attached to it. It still serves as an emergency power generator in my back yard.
     
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