Batteries and New Battery Technologies

The $.03/Kw is the cost of the battery,not the electricity. That's the storage cost, you have to add that to the purchase/generation cost. And since the battery will be charged at less than 100% eff. you need to add the losses to the purchase cost.

 

Ceramatec again

I beleve this Ceramatec subject came up back in threads 131, 132 and 142

Regretably one of the original postings made a link to a newspaper article, and those type links are only good for a very short peroid of time. It's best that some of the text from those articles be included in the postings here.

 

Bert, nice piece, is there a link? - - You seem to be mixing storage costs with supply costs - different beasts altogether... The storage costs seem impressive - any info on the weight and voltage of your "refrigerators" - and are they the HUGE American ones or something a little more petite? - some dimensions would be appreciated and also anciliary stuff to manage/control/regulate the battery (if it must be kept at 90 degrees (C or F?)

 

Hi Masalai, No, I did not mix the two up. I just made a point that the 3 $c is a fals impression. One has to consider also the cost of putting the energy back into the device to get an realistic impression about cost. My apology that I did not made it clear.

I made a list with all kinds of chemical combinations for batteries (My wife helped me with that list) and searched under Yahoo. By typing inverted comma's (don't forget this if you use Yahoo) "Sodium Sulfur battery" "Sodium battery" Sodium Titane battery" etc. You will get all kinds of good information. I picked up some other surprises with my list.

Bert.

 

Ahhh Thanks Bert, - I was aware of the "industrial application" and feel it will be a looong time before I would feel safe using them in my boat instead of AGM or even those being developed for vehicle use... I am prone to making similar typographic errors know what you mean... but the thoughts come out faster than the fingers can type so some words/phrases get left out

 

Hi Masalai,

It is a pity that I don't have 300 USA dollar to waste for 20 gram of special paper. 100 dollar for the paper 115 dollar for the transport and the rest is for import duties and tax. I still believe in Super Capacitors. I can get for about 50 dollar a 1000 Farad from China, but to have 50 of them is still not enough. I have proven to myself that the electronics can handle the smoothing of the curve to a certain extent. But I will have to have Voltage regulators for the motors and some for the other user items, otherwise the efficiency will be way out, if everything is channeld via one regulator. Let say one for 50 Ampere and a few for 5 Ampere. Yes, it is better for us just to make the boat and motors work on old trusted batteries and then in a few years time to change to more modern type of batteries.

 

2200 Farad Caps

Hi Masalai,

Just type "2200 Farad capacitors" under Yahoo and click on GetAFreelancer.com and look at the specs for this system. Look at the bottom and open the specs from the Chinese manufacturer. 2200 is better than 1000 but still way out.

BertKu

 

Join Frosty with all the other saffas heading for Thailand, I would suggest OZ but the immigration side is full of cretins who are as stupid as bureaucrats can get - one way in is via NZ where they are a bit more civilised and once you have permanent residency there cross "the ditch" and go to OZ whenever you like...

 

Electric 50 Kw motorboat

Hi Masalai,

Before you buy all your Spiral Lead Acid batteries, have a look at the Lio-Maganese batteries (Lima). You may have to search for a decent battery management system, but the manufacturer may be able to give some addresses. I probably will go for them, they are not so finity as all the other Lio batteries. It looks quite impressive the 50 Kw motorboat at full speed.

http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/products/power/product-description.html

(Copy and paste, or click on above)

BertKu

 

Thanks Bert, Those batteries would break my budget totally - I have priced them, and I still will need management systems on top of that.... Not yet, maturity is some way off and the 'spirals' should last easily, until then... I will be using the torqeedo "outboards"...

 

Anybody in the Denver, USA area interested in the latest battery advances might want to consider this conference:

http://www.batterypoweronline.com/bppt-conf09/bp09_program.php

If you check the program out, you will see some of the considerations we have touched on in this list.

Porta

 

Last paper

Thank you Porta for bringing this to the forefront. I personnally feel that the last paper may be one of the most important one, namely : Analysis of Battery Metals Supply. It will not help us to put our hopes on any of the future batteries, if suddenly the raw materials dry up. It is a pity that the super capacitor is only presented by one company.

Masalai, it may be worth while for you to put a few super capacitors (2200 Farad) from China on you battery bus. You are using 4 KW motors and the supercapacitor will help to smooth the surges, and according to the paper extend the life of your batteries. If I was you, I would try to get information on that paper.

BertKu

 

Bloody hell.

I was intrigued by the Mastervolt Lithium Iron Phosphate battery that delivers 24 volts and 160 amp/hours. http://www.mastervolt.com/view_prod...=marine&prggr_id=1019&prg_id=1187&pro_id=6103

Out of idle curiosity, you understand, I contacted my nearest UK dealer, Lindon Lewis Marine in Shepperton for a price. An hour later, I received a call with the question "Are you sitting down?" I sat down and learned that the retail price would be £5000 plus 15% VAT. That's just one unit and to that figure should be added electric propulsion motor, photovoltaic cells, control gear and the rest of the clobber.

An electric boat on the Thames was what I had in mind. I have received these costings from http://www.thameselectric.com/

"Dear Perry

Thanks for the enquiry.

We do not sell the Combi these days, but have two other motors that are better and more modern.

The Electron 4000 is in the region of £3000 – exact prices vary as the pound goes up and down. This is a heavy duty piece of equipment.

Also an option is the 4kW Torqeedo, at £2500. Less robust but slightly cheaper.

For batteries we now recommend people use gel traction, as it avoids any gassing or maintenance.

Prices are £210 plus VAT each, 6V, 180Ah. Our estimate is that 8 of these will give you 5-6 hours running, possibly more depending on how easily driven your boat is.

A Charger for these is £400 plus VAT.

Flooded wet batteries are in the region of £140 plus VAT, but need ventilating."

What I had in mind was dirt cheap boating. http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/charging.htm

Every cloud has a silver lining. I have discovered that one brand new 6 year warranty 15 hp Honda 4 stroke outboard with remote controls will PRESENTLY set me back just £2200 including VAT. (Dealer quote.) Fuel consumption at 3000 rpm & 5 mph is 4 pints of unleaded per hour. http://ww1.honda.co.uk/power/marine/detail.html?code=BF15SHU

Currently the money I shall save with the Honda, will buy many gallons of unleaded fuel. I cannot see any economic justification to go electric just yet.

 

Phone a German agent

Hi Perry,

Indeed, you must have had a big shock. However, it depends what size boat you like to equip with an electric motor. The Torqeedo is made in Starnberg, a small town outside Munchen, Germany. I assume that you do not need to go for a 4 Kw motor, but that a smaller version will do for the Thames. I was on the boatshow in Cape Town past Sunday and the smaller version is quite a handfull, included with Lithium battery they were sold for R 11000,- ( 900 pounds) Specs can be obtained from Torqeedo's website.

By the way Rick, Masalia , Sanyo has come out with a 50 Volt Solarpanel. Affordable. (For 48 Volt systems)

Perry, a solarpanel will still charge your batteries, even if there is overcast. But you need to select the correct solar panel and Voltage regulator to regulate between sun and overcast. You save the Pound 5 for topping up your batteries allong the Thames.

Bert

 

Similar issues on my end, the economic downturn, but more particularly the manipulation by the US FED has distorted the markets soooo much that I may also have to capitulate and go for a pair of Yamaha hi thrust 4 stroke (25hp)... I did so desire to avoid having any petroleum on board and to be able to use coconut oil and other available bio-fuels (diesel cycle engines) and an electric galley - still have the electric galley and the diesel genset... - - I may revert to, (continuing with the spiral wound - Optima D34M AGM batteries), configured to 24v DC instead of the 48v DC for the torqeedo 4.0 R outboards... SO sad... If gold bounces in AU$ terms I still may go full electric... and 2000w of solar panels...

Bert, some of those panels are specifically wired for 240v systems? I was told by an installer who has been doing PV systems for years & years, not really suitable for my application??? don't know why and I am not committed to any brand - just space available...