Americas Cup: whats next?

[Zed]

Geez, I guess I'm going to have to recompute everything I know. I was apparently operating under the mistaken impression that three times wind speed in ten knots of wind, UPWIND, was considerably more than a mild breeze... and that 30 plus knots of apparent on a reach was something akin.

Oh, well, back to the drawing board of life... ;-(

Jeez Chris if these things get "good" enough they will only be able to sail in less than 5 knots of breeze! What the hell has apparent wind got to do with sea state and a boats ability to sail to windward in any given condition? 30 Knots apparent is NOT 30 knots over the sea, what a chalk and cheese comparison! And what? Can't these genius's de-power their rigs uphill? I mean really what a load of tripe!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you actually do that much sailing Chris? Do you get the difference between what is going on upwind and on a reach? How do you even begin to make such an inane comparison?

 

[Doug Lord]

San Francisco!

From Scuttlebutt,2/18/10 :

ELLISON AIMS TO STEER AMERICA'S CUP TO THE BAY AREA
Fresh off the America's Cup victory, Larry Ellison - who is the Bay Area's
wealthiest individual with an estimated $27 billion fortune, according to
Forbes - discussed hosting the next America's Cup in San Francisco Bay.

* Is San Francisco a feasible site for the America's Cup?

LARRY ELLISON: Absolutely. We match raced [Switzerland-based rival sailing
team] Alinghi in San Francisco Bay in the Moet Cup [in 2003]. It was a
spectacular regatta because people could watch from office buildings. The
boats are big enough that you can see the entire race. We had hundreds of
thousands of people watching this race-it was probably the most watched
sailboat race ever. And we beat them.
* To hold the Cup in San Francisco you would probably need a lot of space,
though.

LARRY ELLISON: Well, that's the thing. I intend to talk to Gavin Newsom, the
mayor of San Francisco, and we'll see if there's room on the waterfront to
do this. Maybe we can get out to Treasure Island. We want to develop a
sailing village like they have in New Zealand and like they had in Valencia
[in Spain, where the America's Cup was just held.] We want teams from all
over the world to come here.
* The America's Cup isn't as popular in the U.S. as it once was. Would
holding the race in San Francisco be a way to change that?

LARRY ELLISON: If we have the America's Cup here in San Francisco, it will
allow many more people to watch it. But we also have to do a better job of
televising it. We can make sailing much more understandable and much more
exciting by putting cameras on the boats.

These boats twist and groan and the sounds are a very important aspect for
gaining an appreciation of the sport and how much stress we are putting on
these boats.Complete interview: http://tinyurl.com/yen2a3g
Photos from Moet Cup: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/10/0209/

 

[Gary Baigent]

Little do you know Zed, that the little that you know .... is very little.

 

[Gary Baigent]

CT, stop being a crazed Utopian. You know damned well that all this conflict between classes and types, is tribal ... and never the twain shall meet.

 

[Zed]

Little do you know Zed, that the little that you know .... is very little.

Another girly swipe... without saying anything.

BTW Gazza, a tsunami is a wave and nothing to do with wind, just thought I slip that in seeing as we are going for swipes here...AGAIN!

 

[Zed]

CT, stop being a crazed Utopian. You know damned well that all this conflict between classes and types, is tribal ... and never the twain shall meet.

Tribal technologist my favorite sort of idiot! This reminds me of the absolute stupidity that many, otherwise seemingly intelligent people, in the IT field indulge in.


Anywhoooo...

Tell me again why we should not expect AC boats to be able to handle say sub 20 knot breezes and a reasonable sea state? Why is it that they should be designed to such fine tolerances that we have to wait around for exactly the right conditions to sail them? These things are like F1 cars that will not go out in the rain! Billions of dollars and I have a boat that 'works' in 6.7 knots and a gentle .5 meter swell.... well not quite but! Imagine if they sent the F1 crowd home every time it was a touch inclement, sorry people, come back tomorrow, shut the cameras down. etc etc... What a farce that would be.

 

[TeddyDiver]

The omitted sentence in the Deed of Gift..
"Vessels selected to compete for this Cup must proceed under sail on their own bottoms to the port where the contest is to take place"
That's about seaworthiness

 

[ancient kayaker]

A Tsunami is like a house, the three most important things are location, location, location. Out in the ocean you probably wouldn't notice Tsunami passing under you at the speed of a jetplane.

 

[peterraymond]

What's next? SF

The latest press does make it look like Larry is really aiming a SF for the next cup. Space was the big question and he talked about Treasure Island. I can't though see a significant building project making it through the litigious US system in time for a contest on a reasonable schedule.

I think Valencia was mentioned because it could meet the schedule. Newport was also mentioned, but not with much detail. Actually not with anything about facilities that are, or could be available on any reasonable schedule.

If it ended up in Valencia, we would be stuck with boats designed for their conditions in the summer, so not a particularly exciting show. Also, if we have a full complement of teams, boat size will probably have to be limited to get them to fit. I don't think Valencia will want to rebuild and expand their facilities.

Even more questions for Newport and it always had a reputation for light wind that was well deserved.

Of the three, SF has size and current problems, obviously, but the best spectating and more wind. Larry did say they would race in the bay.

I'm prejudiced towards wind.

I personally will give the teams a break on their only sailing this cup in ridiculously light conditions. That was what they were expecting when they designed the boats, so that was what the boats could handle. If you allow a very wide range of conditions then the teams are rolling the dice in a big way and you are less likely to see close competition. If you design a stout boat it will be heavier and the only way you will win against a lighter, but otherwise equal boat, is if the lighter boat breaks. The lighter boat is betting they will win more often then they break. Limiting the conditions ahead of time to a range that is reasonable for a particular venue reduces the Russian roulette in the design process.

Maybe the race should be someplace in the trade wind belt, like the Caribbean. Great publicity for the hosting port and a great environment for the sailors. The US has the US Virgin Islands and also Puerto Rico.

Or, to indulge in fantasy, how about Haiti? It would be a way to pump at least some money into the economy. It would be too late for the relief effort, but they have a continuing need. Of course, the direct contrast between one of the poorest countries in the world and one of the couple largest examples of conspicuous consumption in the world might just sink the cup for good. Or maybe it would lead to a large infusion of money into a country that needs it from a bunch of people who have the resources to make a difference.

Haiti problems have seemed so big that they overcome all efforts to fix those problems. Maybe those same problems make running the cup there impossible. OK, a fantasy.

Peter Raymond

 

[RHough]

Here is a trial balloon ...

Why not use Maxis? The 90 footers in 1887 were the "Maxi" class of their day. Using boats built to the current "Maxi" class rule would make the Cup much more relevant to sailing in general.

Why should the AC use a rule that produces boats that have no other use? Between Cup events, the Maxi class provides continuity for the designers, sailors and sponsors. There is no need to hold competing events "Acts" leading up to the Cup, the Maxi schedule would take care of that. The Cup would see well developed boats and experienced teams putting on a show at a much higher level than we have seen from the AC "fleet" in past Cups.

Limit the LVC to the top 4-8 boats in the Maxi series, with the winner facing the Defender for the Cup.

Seeing the Cup winner sailing in the S-H would put and end to the trash talk about the AC being for sissies.

Just a thought ...

CT 249? What do you think?

 

[peterraymond]

Maxi's

S-H is Southern Hemisphere, is Southern Ocean, is the roaring 40's?

Rules would be a problem. If I knew the cup would be in Valencia and I were the defender, I'd race a boat in the maxi series I knew would lose that series and just barely make it through the tough sections under reduced sail. Then, when I got to Valencia I'd put up the big sails in my lightweight flier and clean up.

The other teams, to get selected, would actually design their boats for the Maxi series, so I'd beat them easily. Assuming of course I were insanely wealthy and I could hire the rock stars to do it all for me and I weren't wasting my time typing internet postings.

There is a nominal series in the previous AC boats now, but there is no money incentive for them to race in cold places with huge wind and waves, so they don't and their boats would take the abuse anyway.

I like the concept, but I'm not sure how to make it work.

Peter Raymond

 

[Chris Ostlind]

S - H is also the Sydney to Hobart race... meaning that Randy's trial proposal would be automatically limited to monohulls that can only be fielded by very rich dudes.

That is unnacceptable to me for a number of reasons.

On a strictly, screw the cost basis, I'd rather see 12 iterations of the Sodeb'O/IDEC design solution, if it's blue water cred you seek. There are already three boats sailing from that genre, one being a near exact copy of Sodeb'O that is running around down in Oman.

They are faster than any Maxi ever thought of being and can handle wind and sea states that rate in the severe category. If the complaints about the slow-to-tack Swiss cat are genuine, then those folks shouldn't try to hold their breath while a Maxi canter tries to get it around through the wind.

 

[bruceb]

Americas cup- good and bad

First the "bad" The lack of a good race was a result of an unprepared defender, not directly because of the type of boats. There have been many Cup boat challengers and defenders in the past that had the same problem. At any level of racing, if you show up with an un-prepared boat and crew, no matter how advanced the technology, the outcome is usually going to be poor. One team was up to the job, the other was not. It happens in boats, cars, business and any other area that good program planing and development are important. The same issues cause failures- money was not problem for these two, so it comes down to egos and leadership. You could race 24' monohulls and the outcome would be the same. One owner was left on the dock to save weight (after spending 100 mil+ to ride on a fast boat), the other insisted on driving his boat- badly. Go figure. Lets hope San Fransisco works out, it could really be fun. B

 

[bruceb]

The good

I think all sailors, designers or builders involved in yachts today will see benefits from the Cup program. Most boat building and design today has depended on "trickle down" engineering and technology from other industries- even the "latest" synthetic rigging came from the fishing industry. The low speed Reynolds numbers are suspect and the water and air flow around sailboats seem to have many different conflicting interpretations. I think that is going to change, and quickly. Both boats were "instrumented" to the extreme, and more important, the information was filtered into a usable form. The boats themselves were not really cutting edge, (foiler moths can also hit 30kts), but all the materials and designs were tested at the max- with real world quantified numbers recorded. That information gathering- specific to our needs, will be available to all of us soon. Some old "rules of thumb" and "we have always done it this way" are going to be challenged, but progress is going to happen. The information age is finally hitting the sailboat and marine industry and we have just had a front row seat. Lets all take a step forward into the future and enjoy it. Bruce

 

[Doug Lord]

Here is a trial balloon ...

Why not use Maxis? ?

===================
You've got to be kidding!
High speed multihull or monohull foilers would be far superior in many ways for the Americas Cup- and you know it...