Americas Cup: whats next?

[wet feet]

My understanding is that the description of a match race originated when owners wagered that they believed their boat to be faster than the other fellow's boat.The race was held to determine the accuracy of their belief by means of a match.In this sense the recent event was a return to this usage rather than the more usual contest between two very similar boats seeking to gain an advantage by tactical means.The future of the event should not really lie with the 12 metre type of boat as they were of an outmoded style of boat well before the last regatta they featured in and the requirement to build to Lloyds scantlings was probably a good thing considering the near 80% ballast ratio they tended toward.It would be healthy for any new type to be capable of sailing in 20 knot winds and ideally without requiring the use of an engine to move ballast.

 

[Zed]

Modern Multi's turn as well as Mono'

Give me a break! Did you watch those things?

 

[RHough]

Give me a break! Did you watch those things?

Yes I did, and with a stopwatch to time the tacks and gybes. One of the boats was a cow, the other tacks and gybes from speed to speed in about the same time as a ACC V5 boat. The higher speeds make the tack or gyble cover more water, but the times are very good.

You cannot draw conclusions after looking at Alinghi, the boat is a pig.

Boats like the x40's turn very well and match race regularly I'm told.

I'd bet that if you put Ed Baird in one x40 and Jimmy Spithill in another, you would see some match racing **** that would curl your hair.

I'd also wager that no only could the x40 tag a ACC V5 out in a prestart, they can sail better VMG both up and down the course.

What have you been looking at to think that multi's don't turn?

 

[Gary Baigent]

The dyed in wool (a dirty brown stain) dies hard - and the Mr. Plod-type lead miners feel very threatened at the moment because, lets face it, BMW-O was just outstanding, outstanding, and A5 looked pretty damned good beating too, so it's difficult for them to accept that even a monster like BMW-O tacks fast for her length and they keep repeating ad nauseum the same old flatulence: not enough tacks, slow to tack, need to be one design, need to sail in 35 ks and so on (all an emphasis to show how macho macho the computer chair poster is). However an invitation to sail on one of these monsters would rapidly change all that ... and turn them into gibbering heaps. Definitely there needs to be some changes in AC made (no stinkers) but I like the sound of the new class ... Xtreme 90's ... or maybe 80's, but they have to be big - because that is what Americas Cup has historically been; not RC44's or Melges 32's and the like.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Agreed, Gary.

I hear these arguments and I think... What would these dudes say if IDEC and Sodeb'O had been wheeled out to the start as AC boats and they had at it in 35 knots with 6 meter swells? None of the committee boats would be present due to seasickness. TV helicopters wouldn't be flying unless they were Coast Guard rescue helos and all you'd get would be on board video with the decks and tramps awash.

Still, I have a feeling that there'd be something to ***** about even then by the "that's just drag racing" crowd and the "they don't have tacking duels" thumb suckers. It's a tough pill to swallow that all of the monohulls of previously comfy thoughts have now been rendered obsolete in the face of 3 times wind speed UPHILL.

It's a sad day in Leadville. Mighty Mono has struck out.

 

[peterraymond]

Assumptions

Two assumptions I made were challenged and I have to admit, I was making assumptions.

The first was the requirement for match racing. I think this is what the DOG specifies, that is one boat from each club. Even when the NYYC was twisting the intent of fair competition into a pretzel, I don't think they ever went as far as sailing multiple boats. Although there was one challenge when they at least talked about picking the defender on a race by race basis.

The second was the comment on turning. Tri's are reputed to turn better, but in my limited experience, long skinny hulls are harder to turn. Maybe it's weight dependent as well. That is, a light long boat will still turn well and have rocket acceleration.

I did watch the races and there were, for whatever reason, fewer turns in the prestart. They took basically one go at each other and then started. You could maybe adjust this to work fine though. More space and more time should do it.

I only see two more problems. The first is just that the boats take up a huge amount of space. Where in the world could you park them all? Well, maybe floating docks. Maybe several U-shaped docks that fit one boat each. All the docks would be anchored so that they turn into the wind to keep the wings feathered. An interesting picture, but practical?

Or enclosed floating dry docks. Slide a boat in, close the doors and lift it out of the water. OK, I'm getting a little carried away here.

Cost is the other question. I think 70' multi's overall might be acceptable. In theory, forces scale with drag. Lighter boats have less drag, so require less strength. Engineering costs are independent of size pretty much, but a multi-hull should mean less material cost. On the other hand, the wing was not cheap. I heard it took 150,000 man hours to make it. Is that possible?

Peter Raymond

 

[Gary Baigent]

Well, there were some (amusing) complaints about the difficulty of keeping up in just 10 knots of wind - and what did BMW-O do upwind, 22 knots at one stage, and 32-33 downwind or was it more? - in 10 or so knots. Holy ****. No wonder that frightens the mice .... and the mice are always complaining in the cathedral. So if a couple of Irens designs were making say 16-18ks to windward in 30 ks wind and sea, the moaning on the leadmine bar would be deafening. Probably call the multihullers anti-semantic. Whoa, that was uncalled for.

 

[Zed]

The dyed in wool (a dirty brown stain) dies hard - and the Mr. Plod-type lead miners feel very threatened at the moment because, lets face it, BMW-O was just outstanding, outstanding, and A5 looked pretty damned good beating too, so it's difficult for them to accept that even a monster like BMW-O tacks fast for her length and they keep repeating ad nauseum the same old flatulence: not enough tacks, slow to tack, need to be one design, need to sail in 35 ks and so on (all an emphasis to show how macho macho the computer chair poster is). However an invitation to sail on one of these monsters would rapidly change all that ... and turn them into gibbering heaps. Definitely there needs to be some changes in AC made (no stinkers) but I like the sound of the new class ... Xtreme 90's ... or maybe 80's, but they have to be big - because that is what Americas Cup has historically been; not RC44's or Melges 32's and the like.

Pull your head in! I own, sail and race multi's... jeez talk about assume a whole bunch of crap.

 

[Gary Baigent]

"Pull your head in! I own, sail and race multi's... jeez talk about assume a whole bunch of crap."

Why in fornication do you think my post was aimed at you Zed? Jeez, talk about hyper sensitivity. Well, maybe I had you half in mind - but was just talking generally. And you're wrong about monster multis tacking.

 

[Zed]

It was a pathetic general spray of a post! Talk about hairy chested BS!

We are talking about big boats that ran from very mild conditions here and put on a sad race... no excitement really, aside from the sheer scale of the things the race's where a yawn. "Gibbering heaps".... LOL... yeah only if the breeze pushed 15 knots and the damn things threatened to break!

Jeez if you want a pro multi race you need to chuck this freak show over board and build a real event!

 

[Doug Lord]

Hulls are outmoded!

From "Foilers", posted on SA by "coxcreek" aka Gary Baigent(foiler owner and designer):
"First of all, there were some incredible records established. When I was a kid, the record of VMG to windward was some 10.8 kts (if my memory’s correct) established in 1937 by the (super) J-Class Ranger –and this was deemed an unbeatable maximum! Today, USA did 15 knots, which is unheard of (C-Class cats do between 12 and 13). Then there is this upwind/downwind 40 mille course thrashed in some 2h 30min, at an average of 16kts as the bird fly, and probably 22 kts on the bottom: it doesn’t look much compared to some 24h oceanic runs downwind, but this was done in a 7-kts whisper of a breeze. In other words the boats were constantly sailing at three times the speed of the wind -hard to believe even when you see it.

Beyond these amazing feats, today’s race is a turning point in America’s Cup and in yachting history. The Cup was designed as a design competition, a test of design skills, as it had been during this legendary race of August 22, 1851. Well, such races are condemned now. Spectators may remember that today a trimaran vanquished a catamaran, but this is wrong: hulls and yacht architecture had nothing to do here. What happened today is that a rigid foil triumphed over a soft rig. In the future, the platform design –the very root of the America’s Cup!- will become secondary, a side issue compared to the problems of designing the “engine” (the rig and (the foils). The hull designer, once the star of the show, will be reduced to the rôle of subcontractor (as is already the case in superyacht design)". …
===============

"Well said!" doesn't say enough about those insightful comments!

 

[ancient kayaker]

... It's a sad day in Leadville. Mighty Mono has struck out.

Don't be so sure, some maniac is probably scaling up a Moth foiler as we write

 

[Guest62110524]

most who post in this thread are or have been racing men
I enjoyed the last Vuitten and subsequent AC, But Nouveau riche and their parasitic lawyers have turned me off, Never watched the races but did admire the engineering of the builds themselves

 

[Gary Baigent]

Doug, that was Daniel Charles' quote, not mine - posted from Fred Monsonnec's Foilers site. But full agreement with what he says.
Zed, if the racing pissed you off so much, what the fargo truck are you posting here for? Perhaps repetition makes it real.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Don't be so sure, some maniac is probably scaling up a Moth foiler as we write

I don't doubt that something like that is being scribbled; probably by lots of talented dudes and dudesses in art schools the world over. The trick will be how to make it all work. Haven't seen any signs of that... not even close.

Will it get to the AC someday? Who really knows? The most out there designs to yet make an appearance apparently bother some folks so much that the palpable scent of fear is in the air and its causing outlandish comments by the truckload. ;-)

It looks like the Carny's are running the circus.