Americas Cup: whats next?

[RHough]

I've done a bit of sailing on the Bay over the years. Due to the tides it can be a very one-sided course, where a boat behind is not going to have any chance to compete. This is especially true in the only area of the bay that is deep enough for the big monohulls.

Things are better down in the Berkeley Circle area, but it is too shallow for the next generation AC monos.

So, maybe it will have to be multis again.

Regardless, they will have to think about shipping lanes. Wouldn't want another "Secret Love" type protest deciding the AC.

I too spent a decade or two sailing in the Bay. I did not mean to imply racing inside the bay would be good. Only that it is not prohibited by the Deed.

As a mental exercise I looked at the City Front area from the viewpoint of a PRO trying to set good courses ... it is a challenge. To be tactically fair each leg has to be skewed for current ... and that is far from a constant.

I came to the conclusion that inside the Bay would be a bad choice for racing but a great choice for entertainment.

R

 

[Zed]

I came to the conclusion that inside the Bay would be a bad choice for racing but a great choice for entertainment.

Considering the money going into these events and the need for sponsorship the entertainment factor will probably gain precedence.

 

[Paul B]

I too spent a decade or two sailing in the Bay. I did not mean to imply racing inside the bay would be good. Only that it is not prohibited by the Deed.

As a mental exercise I looked at the City Front area from the viewpoint of a PRO trying to set good courses ... it is a challenge. To be tactically fair each leg has to be skewed for current ... and that is far from a constant.

I came to the conclusion that inside the Bay would be a bad choice for racing but a great choice for entertainment.

R

We did a J24 regatta there once during the max flood of the year. J24s didn't have the pace to even cross the start line.

The plan was to be well above the line with a minute to go and reach (on Starboard tack) toward a spot well above the leeward pin. All the while you were being swept down the bay toward the line. If you timed it right you would dip the line just before the gun, harden up with your pace and round the pin, then crack off and reach toward the slacker water along the shoreline.

No one below you could stop you, because they couldn't get up to the line. If you missed you wouldn't be able to get up to the pin and it would take forever to to get back to a position where you could make it. The fleet was way spread out by the time everyone started. The first boats to hit the slack water were gone.

So in similar circumstances the match racers would work to be first around the pin, and the boat behind would never be able to get in the game at all. It would make for a pretty boring match race.

 

[RHough]

We did a J24 regatta there once during the max flood of the year. J24s didn't have the pace to even cross the start line.

The plan was to be well above the line with a minute to go and reach (on Starboard tack) toward a spot well above the leeward pin. All the while you were being swept down the bay toward the line. If you timed it right you would dip the line just before the gun, harden up with your pace and round the pin, then crack off and reach toward the slacker water along the shoreline.

No one below you could stop you, because they couldn't get up to the line. If you missed you wouldn't be able to get up to the pin and it would take forever to to get back to a position where you could make it. The fleet was way spread out by the time everyone started. The first boats to hit the slack water were gone.

So in similar circumstances the match racers would work to be first around the pin, and the boat behind would never be able to get in the game at all. It would make for a pretty boring match race.

Ain't that the truth!

I raced in the IOR "B" fleet in the waning years of the rule. The starts of StFYC or GGYC were classic in a flood. 100's of tons of boats going for the line on Starboard, the shore side boat screaming for water, the whole front row tacking to port and sailing out until the port end of the row sailed out of the eddy and got peeled by the flood. Then back to starboard and into the beach to repeat the process.

It was big fun but no way good racing as far as a fair weather leg.

Were you there for the J24 masters where they swamped a boat and the last anyone saw of it was 2 feet of mast riding the ebb out the gate?

How many times did you misjudge the ebb and fight through Raccoon Straights only to come even with a boat that sailed all the way around Angel Island?

Why the hell did they only send us to Southampton when the washing machine off AI was full on and more times than not the fast way was having to gybe in that crap?

Great days and great memories ... but a Cup Venue inside? I don't think so.

R

 

[jehardiman]

Could you just see it. From a GGYC clubhouse start, up to Blackhaller, out to Harding, down to #2, back up to Blackhaller, down to Blossom, back up to finish...all on a flood tide....That's a course were 25 feet one way or the other on some of the tide lines can be a 5 knot speed difference.

 

[Paul B]

How many times did you misjudge the ebb and fight through Raccoon Straights only to come even with a boat that sailed all the way around Angel Island?
R

I was on a 50+ foot IMS boat when we hit a standing wave near the end of Raccoon Straights. The tideline built a wall of water probably 4 feet high. Our bow to the mast was completely submerged.

I wonder what would happen if a 90 foot AC Cat would hit that at 22 knots?

 

[Paul B]

Could you just see it. From a GGYC clubhouse start, up to Blackhaller, out to Harding, down to #2, back up to Blackhaller, down to Blossom, back up to finish...all on a flood tide....That's a course were 25 feet one way or the other on some of the tide lines can be a 5 knot speed difference.

In a big flood one boat width off of the breakwall at the Aquatic Park would send someone backward so quickly it was amazing.

I know they have raced the older AC boats there. Did they sail the City Front?

 

[jehardiman]

I know they have raced the older AC boats there. Did they sail the City Front?

I know Blackhaller and 'The Geek" sailed the City Front a couple of times, can't recall a race for just the 12's though.

 

[Paul B]

I know Blackhaller and 'The Geek" sailed the City Front a couple of times, can't recall a race for just the 12's though.

Not 12s, ACC boats.

 

[jehardiman]

Not 12s, ACC boats.

IACC boats on the City Front? LOL.

 

[Paul B]

IACC boats on the City Front? LOL.

Some guy in SF bought 2 or 3 of the older generation boats and was match racing them on the bay. Then a few years ago Larry had a couple of his boats there and the four boats were used for some match racing with a bunch of the AC teams participating.

I can only imagine they sailed the City Front, but I don't know for sure.


It seems that Alinghi and BMW-O did a match race with their ACC boats in the bay as well.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/news/412311/acc-boats-prepare-for-moet-cup

 

[jehardiman]

2003 Moet Cup was in the center between the seperation lanes, but ok, I didn't recall that.

More photos of that...http://www.islander36.org/moetcup/moetcup.html

 

[peterraymond]

Freemantle or Hawaii

The best AC cup viewing was in Freemantle. There was wind, the boats were bashing through the waves and the crew was working hard. More recently the races have been sailed at venues with lighter winds and that's what the boats were then designed to handle. This time around I think the boats could have handled more, but neither team was too interested in taking a chance and Alinghi wanted the wind to be a light as possible. Too bad for them that the winds were never light and steady at the same time.

If the notice of race specifies the wind range for racing ahead of time and the organizers find someplace with some decent wind, the boats will be designed for that. After all, the VOR boats seem to handle some stout conditions.

I watched the press conferences and I got the impression that Larry E wanted SF and the discussion of other places was maybe just the first shot in his bargaining with the city. I suppose there are limits, but money is going to be a big part of picking the location.

What I really hope happens probably won't. In the bad old days several American teams would compete to face a lone challenger. In the recent challenges there has only been one defender. I think the best would be a defender series, maybe the BMW cup and then the Louis Vuitton series for the challengers. I'm guessing that that is most likely to happen in the USA.

This wouldn't guarantee good cup races, but does provide a little more action leading up to the cup.

I would not want to continue with the current design rules for the next cup. It's supposed to be match racing and for that you need maneuvering. Yes there was some before each start and there were tactics on the windward leg of the second race, but nothing like we have seen in the past. Of course spectators love crashes and these boats could produce some spectacular ones.

Peter Raymond

 

[Doug Lord]

The best AC cup viewing was in Freemantle. There was wind, the boats were bashing through the waves and the crew was working hard. More recently the races have been sailed at venues with lighter winds and that's what the boats were then designed to handle. This time around I think the boats could have handled more, but neither team was too interested in taking a chance and Alinghi wanted the wind to be a light as possible. Too bad for them that the winds were never light and steady at the same time.

If the notice of race specifies the wind range for racing ahead of time and the organizers find someplace with some decent wind, the boats will be designed for that. After all, the VOR boats seem to handle some stout conditions.

I watched the press conferences and I got the impression that Larry E wanted SF and the discussion of other places was maybe just the first shot in his bargaining with the city. I suppose there are limits, but money is going to be a big part of picking the location.

What I really hope happens probably won't. In the bad old days several American teams would compete to face a lone challenger. In the recent challenges there has only been one defender. I think the best would be a defender series, maybe the BMW cup and then the Louis Vuitton series for the challengers. I'm guessing that that is most likely to happen in the USA.

This wouldn't guarantee good cup races, but does provide a little more action leading up to the cup.

I would not want to continue with the current design rules for the next cup. It's supposed to be match racing and for that you need maneuvering. Yes there was some before each start and there were tactics on the windward leg of the second race, but nothing like we have seen in the past. Of course spectators love crashes and these boats could produce some spectacular ones.

Peter Raymond

=================
Just out of curiosity,where does that come from?

 

[RHough]

I would not want to continue with the current design rules for the next cup. It's supposed to be match racing and for that you need maneuvering.
Peter Raymond

First the Deed says nothing about match racing.

Second for match racing you need boats of nearly equal ability. Speed and maneuverability both factor.

12's were good match racers
ACC's were good match racers

A race between a 12 and a ACC would NOT be a good match race.

Modern Multi's turn as well as Mono's

If you put a watch on the tacks and gybes USA-17 made you will find they are very nearly as fast as the boats in AC32. If you clock them from 10 knots to 10 knots they are much faster changing direction ... or would be if they ever dropped to 10 knots during a tack.

The AC is first a design contest. The races very rarely produce boats close enough in performance that "match racing" ever plays a part in the outcome.

R