America's Cup Disaster

[Zed]

I think the point is this: If BenBob needed someone else to do the keel he should have used a resident of a community between Sydney and Perth.

For a nation of 20 odd million to compete with a nation of 300 odd million we need some latitude when it comes to resources. In that day serious tank testing was always going to happen OS and involve people from the facility. If we go there on Ben and "the team" we also need to vet the papers of every person involved in every US campaign. I wonder what you would find in that lot?

Australia is a true melting pot of nations, the guy lived here for a good period like so many, the rest is paperwork. He was here long enough that he must have had resident status, at the time the gov was anti dual nationality so it made sense to stay as a resident and keep the Euro passport. The fact that he never took citizenship could have been for a reason as simple as that. There are many current citizens that have not been here as long! You know its splitting hairs! If we where to do the exercise today the keel designer may just have well been born in India and be an "Australian" of 4 years!

If you wanted a serious challenge to test your skill, it was a minor point. That is born out by the result, it was a hard fought series despite the "wonder keel". So to argue that it was the deciding issue is not a very strong case IMO!

That is of course if you actually wanted a serious challenge!

 

[Paul B]

For a nation of 20 odd million to compete with the resources of a nation of 300 odd million we need some latitude when it comes to resources. In that day serious tank testing was always going to happen OS and involve people from the facility. If we go there on Ben and "the team" we also need to vet the papers of every person involved in every US campaign. I wonder what you would find in that lot?

Australia is a true melting pot of nations, the guy lived here for a good period like so many, the rest is paperwork. He was here long enough that he must have had resident status, at the time the gov was anti dual nationality so it made sense to stay as a resident and keep the Euro passport. The fact that he never took citizenship could have been for a reason as simple as that. There are many current citizens that have not been here as long! You know its splitting hairs! If we where to do the exercise today the keel designer may just have well been born in India be be an "Australian".

If you wanted a serious challenge to test your skill, it was a minor point. That is born out by the result ---> That is of course if you actually wanted a serious challenge!

I don't think Joop Sloof ever lived in OZ.

When teams ran tank tests overseas they didn't have the folks from the tank design the shapes they wanted to test, or re-design the shapes based on the results.

As I mentioned earlier, the USA "teams", and others, had the same sort of shennanigans going on. No one had clean hands.

 

[Zed]

Azzurra was the Italian boat. Funny, there has been a persistent rumour for years that there was considerable design input for that boat from a non-Italian who had to stay hidden because of the rule.

Bertrand was terrified that the Italians would actually agree on tactics and who was steering. He reckoned if they got that far AII was toast, she was supposed to be that fast! History could have been very different if it where not for the way the Italians ran their campaign. That was Bertrand's main comment about 83, it was not the keel or boat that succeeded it was the campaign, which is a far more complex challenge than just building a fast 12.

 

[Zed]

No one had clean hands.

That is the point in the end isn't it! Glass houses and all that.

Ben was a flawed but inspired designer, easy to criticize him but he got a long way all things considered. I like that characters like Ben did what they did... it would be a dry old world without the mavericks.

I don't think Joop Sloof

I dunno... I'm talking about the other guy.

 

[Paul B]

Bertrand was terrified that the Italians would actually agree on tactics and who was steering.

In a Seahorse article BenBob was asked if the Italians could win the cup. His answer (from the best of my memory) was, "Latins will never win the cup. When the pressure is on they are too busy running around knifing one another."

The word knifing was used, that's not my edit.

 

[Paul B]

I dunno... I'm talking about the other guy.

I mentioned Joop because it appears he actually had more to do with the design than PvO.

 

[bit]

Americas' cup? There are people who "signed" and people who "do". This last case of the van Oossanen, (and Tarabocchia -> Azzurra?...).
Eg
bye

 

[Zed]

In a Seahorse article BenBob was asked if the Italians could win the cup. His answer (from the best of my memory) was, "Latins will never win the cup. When the pressure is on they are too busy running around knifing one another."

The word knifing was used, that's not my edit.

Yes... lucky for us the Kiwi's didn't have the thing!

 

[peterraymond]

Didn't Monty Python do this better?

 

[CT 249]

from the time magazine article




and who was it who was trying to convince me of the good old honest glory days "before" there was any of this lawyering going on

har har har

Told you I grew up with that crap
there has been a lawyer sailing on every boat that ever sailed out of New Port

its a tradition
lmao

I just wonder if some lawyer is going to come along and try and have the Aussies stripped of there 83 tittle

now that would be a hoot eh
talk about bedlam

this is just to funny guys

ok the fin was not wide enough to be disqualified based on its being an appendage nor could it be disqualified because it was movable although the bolts were awfully suspicious to a lot of folks. Apparently as it turns out it was guilty of most likely not being designed by an Aussie which means

you guessed it

it was illegal

what do you wanna bet old Denis the menace raises a new protest

I am laughing my living *** off over here
talk about entertainment

Notice how all the articles you quoted state that the idea of winglets on a 12 Metre came from the Dutch?

Therefore, they are wrong, because as mentioned the two previous Aussie 12 Metre designers, Hood and Payne, drew small winglets on a 'crystal ball' 12 Metre design study that was published in Modern Boating magazine in Australia about a decade before Australia II hit the water. At the time MB was the best selling sailing magazine in the country.

To say that the Dutch invented something that had been published in a design study in the very same class years before is simply ridiculous. There entire story that the winglets were a Dutch invention is simply false.

"Upside-down keels" were not exactly unusual and had been seen for many years on many craft, as had winglets.

How can we rely on a story that consists of one claim that is (on physical evidence) totally incorrect, and another claim that contradicts earlier statements by the same person?

 

[Paul B]

There entire story that the winglets were a Dutch invention is simply false.

You are making the same argument that Bondy and his lawyer have been making.

Let's be honest. Forget lawyer wording.


Do you honestly believe than BenBob or any other Aussie did the research and calculations, then drew the keel that was on AII? This question requires a Yes/No answer.

 

[Zed]

LOL....

Ben would have drawn it first! Calculations they come later....

 

[Paul B]

LOL....

Ben would have drawn it first!

Maybe so...

But I don't see a Yes or No in that answer.

So DID he draw it first? If so, where are the drawings?

 

[Doug Lord]

Amazing story!

From Scuttlebutt: SNG race committee refused to start the race today-waves too big! See this:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/americas-cup-2010-race-thread-31452-3.html#post344751

 

[Zed]

So DID he draw it first? If so, where are the drawings?

1. You are asking people who can't possibly know to speculate.

2. You are asking the same people to provide access to material evidence?!

Come now....!

This is all speculation and you know it!