America's Cup Disaster

A5's hulls have an unsightly bone in her leeward tail. They still drag their asses. That leeward hull and stern waterline is halfway up the buoyant hull and there is a lot of drag there. Looks very similar to Britton Chances' Mariner's wake.

Wow, I guess people see what they want to see.

After yo-yoing back and forth on the video I see the stern of A5 releasing the stern wave quite nicely, no worse than the BMW-O boat. I caught the BMW-O leeward roostertail in one shot, seems to be coming off the leeward corner of their stern.

I tried to get a couple of screen shots for comparison. Not very good, but I sure never see the A5 stern halfway immersed. Chance wished Mariner's wake would have looked like this (although from the surface you would not have visually seen any difference in Mariner's wake and a "normal" 12s wake).
 

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Yes, you're right Paul, we see what we see - and maybe I am biased. However it "appeared" to me that A5's wake was not clean and it's a fact of life, a hard turning transom on a displacement hull forced down by weight and wind power, is going to be disturbed and messy and draggy. Conversely the amas on BMW-O, narrower and finer looking "to me" have a far less churned up wake. But then, as I say .....
 
Yes, you're right Paul, we see what we see -

I think what we saw today was the guys who sailed Formula 40s 20+ years ago were pretty smart when they concluded tris were faster than cats, due to wetted area, righting moment, longitudinal stiffness, etc.

We also saw the guys who sail C Class cats were pretty smart when they concluded wing sails are better than soft sails.

Did you note the much smaller overlap of the BMW-O downwind sail? Maybe some better aero there, due to the extra power of the wing?
 
===========================
Why? At high speeds the ORMA 60's and newer tris like Banque Populaire and Groupama place a premium on using the foils for lift(to reduce wetted surface) .

Tris tend to have relatively low volume amas (sp?). Alinghi seems to have lots of volume in the hulls and to sit pretty lightly on the water, or to have a lot of rocker so the ends, particularly the bows, sit high. In the typical tri flying two hulls the ama is pretty loaded, but Alinghi's hull doesn't sink much, even when the other hull is out of the water. It would take a lot of lift to reduce the surface area much and if you did the ends of the hull would start to come out of the water. Even though I'm sure these boats are way past hull speed, shortening the water line length is generally not a good idea, except at low speeds, not 20-30 knots. If you are powered up and have picked up a lot of water and pumped it into the windward hull for RM, displacement goes up and then maybe lift makes more sense.

Of course, like everyone else, I'm just speculating on why Alinghy went with straight boards today.
 
For a topic that so many folk claimed had lost its interest the AC seems to have attracted a near record of posts in the last few hours!
 
Originally Posted by Boston View Post
led to Denis going with a cat
which won in 87

Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
Still incorrect.

I'm confused.. time warp or parallel universe where he losed this one.. :confused:
Anyway my memory is everything but perfect so I peeked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_America's_Cup

official race results Teddy
anyone who says otherwise is simply living in there own universe

1987

Results

- January 31, first race. Course direction: 225° on leg one. Wind speed: 8 to 18 knots. Wave height: 0.1 to 0.5 m. Stars & Stripes beats Kookaburra III by one minute and 41 seconds.
- February 1, second race. Course direction: 195° on leg one. Wind speed: 22 to 23 knots. Wave height: 1.0 to 1.2 m. Stars & Stripes beats Kookaburra III by one minute and 10 seconds.
- February 2, third race. Course direction: 210° on leg one. Wind speed: 12 to 18 knots. Wave height: 0.1 to 0.3 m. Stars & Stripes beats Kookaburra III by one minute and 46 seconds.
- February 4, fourth race. Course direction: 220° on leg one. Changed to 210° on leg three. Wind speed: 16 to 20 knots. Wave height: 0.3 to 1.6 m. Stars & Stripes beats Kookaburra III by one minute and 59 seconds.

Stars & Stripes beats Kookaburra III by four wins to nil

Kookaburra III is defeated and loses the 1987 America's Cup defence.

simple fact is Denis came back and humiliated the Munchkins 4/zip
its a fact

you remembered just perfectly so no worries

cheers
B

pps
back in the day out on the cape any of the contenders were called munchkins by us locals so dont go getting all high and mighty thinking its a reference to anyone particular
all in good fun folks
all in good fun

peace
B
 
simple fact is Denis came back and humiliated the Munchkins 4/zip
its a fact

What you said was:
in 83 it was still thought that a 12 meter boat was a 12 meter boat once it was established that it wasnt then all the fins and wings and multihulls started showing up

this is exactly the argument that was made and lost and led to Denis going with a cat
which won in 87

So your statement that a Cat won in 87 is wrong, DC won with a 12M in 1987. The Cat was NOT sailed against the Australian "munchkins". The Cat was sailed against Fay's Challenger from New Zealand.

rather than look it up and say "sorry, '88 not '87" you argue the fact. :)

R
 
...this is exactly the argument that was made and lost and led to Denis going with a cat which won in 87

Boston,

I'm sorry to relay this info to you, but the S&S cat did not win the AC in '87.

The year was 1988. I sat in my 18th street Costa Mesa living room and watched the whole thing with cat sailing buddies. We consumed mass quantities of pizza and beer and had a rousing good time yelling at the tube.

If you want to see it, I have it all on VHS Hi-Fi. That same year, the Lakers beat the Pistons for the NBA title, the Dodgers beat the supposedly unbeatable Oakland A's in the World Series and all was good in SoCal. At least in my house it was.
 
official race results Teddy
anyone who says otherwise is simply living in there own universe



simple fact is Denis came back and humiliated the Munchkins 4/zip
its a fact

you remembered just perfectly so no worries

cheers
B

The cat was 1988.

The 87 results are 12's.
 
Wikipedia:
The 1987 America's Cup was the twenty-seventh running of the America's Cup regatta and the first time for 132 years that it had not been hosted by the New York Yacht Club.

American syndicate Stars & Stripes, sailed by Dennis Conner, beat Kookaburra III, sailed by Iain Murray, by four wins to nil in the best of seven final series.[1] Conner, the winning skipper had thus become the first person to lose the America's Cup, and the first to win it back.

The series was held in Gage Roads off Fremantle, Western Australia between December 1986 and February 1987. The Royal Perth Yacht Club was the defending club and the organiser of the defence series.[2] Yacht Club Costa Smeralda of Porto Cervo, Sardinia was appointed the challenger of record and hence the organiser the challenger series.[3][4]

The 1987 Series was the last time that 12-metre class yachts were used in the America's Cup


So it was 12m.. and cat came 1988..
 
I think the nit picking is an obvious attempt to ameliorate the loss in some way
some folks are just poor looser's

no sense arguing the little things
fact of the mater is old Denis kicked *** next time around
the meat of the issue is
Denis won
in a cat

Valencia - 13.01.2006
1988 - Stars & Stripes US-1 Catamaran
“The boats are going to be very big, very radical, and very controversial. The contest will not be a sailboat race. It will be a design lottery in which the sailors will have little or nothing to do with the outcome. In one word, the 1988 America’s Cup challenge will be bizarre.”

That was the assessment of Dennis Conner as published in an interview for the Australian review The Bulletin on December 15th, 1987. The facts would prove Conner right and the unsurprising victory of his small 18.30-metre LOA catamaran, Stars & Stripes, against the huge 27.43-metre LOA monohull New Zealand would remain forever the most incongruous America’s Cup.

The long silence of the San Diego Yacht Club following Dennis Conner's victory with the 12-metre Stars & Stripes on February 4th, 1987 in Fremantle is often cited as the reason behind the 1988 America’s Cup. Taking literally the words of the Deed of Gift, the New Zealand banker Michael Fay, impatient with American foot-dragging, sent a challenge contrary to all expectations on July 15th, 1987.

His challenger would be a 90-foot monohull, pushing aside the 12-metre class that had been used in each Cup since 1958. Taken aback, the Americans rejected the challenge but Fay asked to the Supreme Court of the State of New York County to intervene. On November 25th, Justice Carmen Beauchamp Ciparick confirmed the validity of the challenge.

With just 10 months to prepare, the Defender decided upon a radical option. John Marshall, the chief of the Sail America Foundation design team, announced on January 22nd, 1988 that the defender would be a catamaran. The Americans had only eight months left to conceive, build and test a defender capable of repelling the assault of Fay's ‘Big Boat’.

The American decision was simple on one level, yet at the same time was complex. It was obvious that the multihull choice was likely to be interpreted as a provocation and would generate a new legal conflict. But from a sailing point of view it was simple – the Americans didn’t have the time to catch up in conceiving and constructing a big monohull. Instead, it was easier to opt for a catamaran, which was sure to be faster, more elusive, and with a LOA limited to 60 feet (18.29 metres) it would be able to be built quickly.

On April 15th, 1988 (the immense monohull New Zealand had been sailing in the waters off Auckland since March 27th) John Marshall confirmed that two catamarans were in the process of being built. The first one would be fitted with a soft rig, the second with a hard rig. Conceived in record time, Stars and Stripes, the Defender catamaran was a successful marriage merging cutting-edge naval architecture with aeronautics. For this, Marshall co-ordinated a team comprising exceptional people like Gino Morrelli, who since his youth was fascinated by multihulls. He very quickly became one of the best American specialists and accepted without hesitation the challenge of the America’s Cup. With Bruce Nelson, Britton Chance and Bernard Nivelt, he drew up the catamaran. As expected, two 60-foot boats were built, one of them soft-rigged, following Morrelli’s design. The other one was hard-rigged with a winged-mast, a specialty of Dave Hubbard and Duncan MacLane (who had previously worked out this mode of propulsion on 25 feet-catamarans (7.72 metre) belonging to the C-Class, as the famous Patient Lady.

To scale up the concept of a mast-wing with articulated flaps from a 25-foot catamaran to a 60-foot machine, Marshall appealed to Burt Rutan's talents, the designer of Voyager, an ultra-light airplane that would make a round the world flight without stopping in 1988. In ten weeks, Rutan, Hubbard and MacLane, supported by a team of 40 people, succeeded in extrapolating the concept. It was an achievement “more difficult than with the airplane wing” Rutan would say later, because of the absolute constraint to save weight.

On May 24th, the first boat was launched and in June, Dennis Conner sailed with the hard-rigged cat. The team discovered that in light wind, the traditional soft rigging of the sister ship was more effective. But in more steady, stronger winds, the hard-rigged cat was faster but the risk of material failure was bigger. So Rutan and his team built up a new winged mast and delivered it at the beginning of August. This second structure was 40% bigger and far more solid than the first one. The mast measured 32.61 metres, 5.80 metres more than the first one, and thus the performance was there: the catamaran fitted with the hard rig was preferred to the classic soft-rigged boat.

Meanwhile, on May 5th, 1988, as expected, Michael Fay again asked for justice. He argued that the San Diego YC should defend the America’s Cup in September 1988 but with a 90-foot monohull. He noted the Deed of Gift required a match between “like and similar boats.”

On July 25th, 1988 Justice Ciparick declared Fay’s argument premature and concluded: “The time has come for the sailors to be permitted to participate in the America’s Cup. The parties are directed to proceed with the races and to reserve their protests, if any, until after the completion of the America’s Cup races.”
 
What you said was:

So your statement that a Cat won in 87 is wrong, DC won with a 12M in 1987. The Cat was NOT sailed against the Australian "munchkins". The Cat was sailed against Fay's Challenger from New Zealand.

rather than look it up and say "sorry, '88 not '87" you argue the fact. :)

R

Yes you are right!
 
...So a question to boys who were right.. why, if you knew, didn't just throw in the right info into first place? ;)


Hi Ted,

Do you really think that it would have made any difference if I had? Paul tried to lead the conversation along with fairly obvious hints and it went nowhere. The time came to just put it out there and try to end the goofiness. I failed.
 
Its always best to just come right out and say something rather than play games

Maybe in future we can find a way to communicate a little better and avoid any animosities developing over the minutia

cheers as always
B
 
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