Suppose a Hard Carbon Crackdown

[sharpii2]

The construction and premise of your query is flawed. First: why do you think that all planing powerboats are less carbon efficient than all displacement hulls? Second: do you include the carbon pollution required to make a new hull? and the follow on: do you include the carbon pollution required to scrap the existing hulls?

First, I never made such a claim or assumption. The fact is that planing boats use about three times as much fuel as non-planing ones, for the same distance and the same displacement. Higher engine efficiency may help the planing boat in this regard, if the non-planing boat does not have it, but it will probably never close the gap. The planing hull may then use maybe 2.5 times as much fuel. Or maybe only 2.0 times as much. And this assumes both boats are the same length.

And no, I don't include the carbon cost of building new boats.

I don't for two reasons:

1.) I expect a useful life of at least 30 years for each hull, whether it's planing or not. The carbon cost for building each gets divided over that time. The fuel use gets multiplied over that time.

2.) there are high carbon costs and low carbon costs, depending on building materials and technigues chosen to build the boat. If for example the boat is made of wood planks, it's building would have a considerably lower carbon cost than if it were built out of aluminum. And even if the new boats are made of aluminum, this aluminum could very well come from non-carbon emitting sources (not likely, nowadays, I admit).

And finally, I don't assume the cost of scrapping the planing hulls. I don't for two reasons:

1.) I find the idea of scrapping anything that can be of some use to be a bad idea. Part of the reason we are in this predicament (assuming we are), is our throwaway culture. We not only throw away things that have useful life in them, but we diliberate make things that cannot be repaired, so we can force people to buy newer versions, whether they want to or not. I was really hoping that some of the more creative visitors to this site would come up with clever ways of converting planing hulls into non-planing ones.

(Instead, it appears most want to argue about whether human-accelerated global warming is happening or not. This is NOT what I intended this thread to be about.)

2.) there are relatively low carbon cost methods of disposing of unwanted hulls. I have seen numerous YouTube videos of old work boats being scuttled to create artificial reefs.

 

[wet feet]

By some coincidence this thread attracted a lot of comments on the day that GM announced plans to discontinue gasoline and diesel engine production https://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-ev-sales-2035/ .They must have their reasons.I have been reading of late about the slowly increasing market share of electrically driven cruising power catamarans in Europe.They carry significant battery banks and have the surface area on the upper works for a good number of solar panels.It looks a lot like the future to my eyes.For smaller boats and efficient travel these hydrofoils look promising Candela electric hydrofoil boat - watch the first e-foiling boat in action! https://electrek.co/2020/08/25/worlds-first-electric-hydrofoil-boat-candela-7/ . It has to be said that such technologies are still at a very early point in their development and there may be lots more potential to extract.Can the same be said of planing powerboats?

 

[hoytedow]

Artificial reefs from grp hulls a good idea? Why or why not. Scuttling hulls made from polyester would just add to the microplastics now endemic to our seas. There is also the question of what to do with all the foam flotation which would need removal.
I would say burn it for energy to power electric boats but someone would then whine about CO2 and airborne acrylamides.
It is better to grind it up to bolster concrete for all the burial vaults that will be needed once the forced depopulation program takes effect.

 

[fallguy]

Artificial reefs from grp hulls a good idea? Why or why not. Scuttling hulls made from polyester would just add to the microplastics now endemic to our seas. There is also the question of what to do with all the foam flotation which would need removal.
I would say burn it for energy to power electric boats but someone would then whine about CO2 and airborne acrylamides.
It is better to grind it up to bolster concrete for all the burial vaults that will be needed once the forced depopulation program takes effect.

Yeah. I just exceeded my annual dosage allowance of cynicism.

Out.

 

[Will Gilmore]

once the forced depopulation program takes effect

Ha ha ha, I loved Logan's Run. You and I and most everyone on this forum would be among the first to go. The very first would be property owners in subtropical coastal regions where real estate is highly desirable and expensive. You know, like where a ten foot rise in sea level would put it at flood risk. Better invest in a wall of sand bags for your banana trees, Hoyte.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[gonzo]

"A combustion engine needs a fuel that can not be collected and processed instantaneously or on a small scale."During WWII the British developed several viable gassifier designs using various grown plants (such as wood) to run farm tractors and automobiles. Several European contries also developed gassifier systems to power internal combustion engines via several low-tech methods. Certainly not as convenient as our Gasoline/Fossil Oil technology, but it worked none the less.

My grandfather run his buses with gasogen generators during WWII

 

[Will Gilmore]

I was really hoping that some of the more creative visitors to this site would come up with clever ways of converting planing hulls into non-planing ones.

Going hull speed or slower does that, but adding foils would be relatively simple and it doesn't take a lot of speed to lift a small boat or of the water.

The fact is that planing boats use about three times as much fuel as non-planing ones, for the same distance and the same displacement.

I find that hard to believe, but I am prepared to accept it. In every planing boat I've been on, you can pull way back on the throttle, once it's up on a plane, and still go quite a bit faster than hull speed. I've never measured it, but I would guess that pushing the throttle up just past hull speed will do it. The boat is either climbing that bow wave or skipping across the top. I think skipping across the top, with that extra ease and speed, would be much much more efficient.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[gonzo]

This is a typical discussion with numbers and figures that have no data to back them up. Where does the three times as much fuel come from? Further, time is costly and has to be included in the equation. We could simply drift along the old shipping lanes. However, it would take a floating farm to survive the trip. The cargo capacity would be tiny or nil.

 

[fredrosse]

From fallguy: "still have the steamer? Does it run on gas?"

Yes, the Margasret S is still here, burning Propane for fuel. Souped up considerably last year, changed safety valve settings, from 100 PSI up to 180 PSI (Boiler designed for 250 PSI). Was typically running with 80-90 PSI steam, now 140-150 PSI. Now she really cooks, although that is a relative term when talking about pure displacement boats.

https://www.facebook.com/donfenstermach ... 66926/?t=1

 

[Squidly-Diddly]

As a side note, I'm really digging my "plug in hybrid" (I never "plug in" just use CRG mode to make engine charge main batt) Prius Prime and think it would be great starting point for similar system in boats.
In a boat I figure you could use the full power of engine+battery to get up on plane, then less power to stay on plane. The hybrid system and CCVT means you can have a Atkins Cycle gas engine which rivals diesels in efficiency. Also do low speed trolling or quiet maneuvering in the marina/ramps without running/starting the engine. Also significant battery capacity for running stuff without needing engine or gen-set. I've heard the few attempts at hybrid boats are insanely overpriced and "systems integration" is anything but integrated and different vendors blaming each other with the owner in the middle. Prius is certainly seamlessly integrated and well sorted.

Of course, like all "Green" stuff it really doesn't cut carbon much if at all, and the raw materials are mostly mined by hand with child slave labor. But I like it for the user friendly flexibility, such as not running the engine in bumper to bumper traffic or being able to run the HVAC for extended periods without running engine.

 

[Kayakmarathon]

Carbon taxes and policies would apply to the little people. The wealthy will still get to do what they want. The boats will have enough battery or sail power to reach international waters where internal combustion engines are turned on.

 

[fallguy]

From fallguy: "still have the steamer? Does it run on gas?"

Yes, the Margasret S is still here, burning Propane for fuel. Souped up considerably last year, changed safety valve settings, from 100 PSI up to 180 PSI (Boiler designed for 250 PSI). Was typically running with 80-90 PSI steam, now 140-150 PSI. Now she really cooks, although that is a relative term when talking about pure displacement boats.

https://www.facebook.com/donfenstermach ... 66926/?t=1

Link is not permitted. Probably gotta be a friend.

 

[wet feet]

Carbon taxes and policies would apply to the little people. The wealthy will still get to do what they want. The boats will have enough battery or sail power to reach international waters where internal combustion engines are turned on.

That conjure up visions of a situation like the old rum-runners,with boatloads of fuel sitting just outside territorial limits waiting for desperate purchasers to show up.

Alternatively,I may have seen the future and it could evolve in scale and cost.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Perhaps sailing will come back into vogue.

In the seventies, when driving around from waterfront town to waterfront town, marinas bristled with masts. The last time I crossed the causeway into Miami, as well as many other towns, there was a distinct lack of masts. Cabin cruisers, sport fishing boats and mega-yachts have taken over.

I suspect there will be a time, twenty to thirty years from now, when used mega yachts will be like production sailboats from the eighties, flooding the market and more costly the cheaper they are priced.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[gonzo]

Atkins Cycle gas engine which rivals diesels in efficiency

That is completely wrong. The Otto cycle is more efficient unless you only look at a narrow operating range. Further, diesel engines are used in commercial applications because they are more efficient that gas engines.