Suppose a Hard Carbon Crackdown

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by sharpii2, Jan 28, 2021.

?

What would happen to the planing powerboat hulls?

  1. They would simply be used less.

    60.0%
  2. Most of them would be scrapped.

    10.0%
  3. Some of them at least would be converted into displacement powerboats.

    30.0%
  1. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    No, its completely right which is easy to see if you include the first part of the sentence, "The hybrid system and CCVT means you can have a Atkins Cycle gas engine which rivals diesels in efficiency."(woops, I wrote "a Atkins" should be "AN Atkins") which explains the other features which allow a car's engine to have narrow operating range. All this explains why a Prius now "rivals" such high MPG cars such as VW TDI in real world driving, as does the thermal efficiency of the new Toyota gas engines. Not sure if they are officially "Atkins" but Govt mandated "fleet" MPG regs are the reason 8-spd A/T are now standard where as just few years ago 4-spd A/T was considered good enough even for expensive cars.
    Besides the fact that the Toyota tech is new and just launched into car market, there are other reasons why diesels will remain the go-to in many commercial applications (and armored fighting vehicles LOL). Some if this has to due to volatility of the fuel and regulations around that. Many new condos and other buildings now have their own back up generators and it might makes sense to buy a cheaper gas gen-set since its only going to be used once in Blue Moon if ever but Codes and Fire Regs and scare stories cause people to choose diesel over gas. I've heard it will be a major PIA to land any gas powered aircraft at a commercial airport these days, mostly due to Fire Safety Regs due to the more explosive fuel, and not just that the fuel isn't as common.
    PS-Did you ever find any cases of retail gas stations in the USA selling gas that was way out of spec with harmful extra amounts of alcohol in the mix you were claiming?
     
  2. JRD
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    JRD Senior Member

    An interesting article addressing the ongoing issue with disposal of grp and some developments in recovery and recycling.
    Fiberglass Disposal Part 1 - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine https://www.proboat.com/2021/01/fiberglass-disposal/
     
  3. KeithO
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    KeithO Senior Member

    I dont think there is much question of a crackdown on fossil fuel. It is clearly a major political priority for the ruling party in the US currently. I will be watching the fuel and electricity pricing carefully. It will suit a lot of people if oil supply were to be throttled a bit making the consumer pay up handsomely. We will no doubt be driven into the expensive grasp of Tesla and others with their high price over-complicated and unreliable products through sheer financial pressure. Its not clear where the grid power will come from to support this new way of life, given that California cant even run their ACs in the summertime without inviting another forest fire due to antiquated and worn out powerline infrastructure.

    The last round of EPA fleet mileage standards gave us a rash of new expensive high tech engines which have demonstrated major reliability problems across virtually all brand names. The price of a mid size sedan also doubled. And finally, very few people really have seen the substantial fuel economy benefits that were promised. The next round (partial hybrids) from my insider knowledge are going to be absolute maintenance nightmares, given the weird and wonderful places that the manufacturers have resorted to putting parts of the added electrical system, and the benefits are questionable to say the least. In a 3/4 ton truck test, the Ram partial hybrid was more expensive than all its competitors yest got the absolute worst fuel economy of all the trucks tested.

    For me, my next truck is going to be something from the 50's or 60's and will be free of the EPA's crap and will have an engine that I can access and work on. If I can find a used Nissan Leaf for a good deal, I might buy that as my commuter car because at $6500 it is an appropriate price for that purpose and might free me from some of the gas price crisis we may be seeing in the near term.
     
  4. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    OK.
    I'll tell you where I got this from.
    A displacement hull requires about 5 hp per ton to reach an S/L rate of 1.30. A lower S/L can be attained with far less hp per ton. The bloody Titanic had roughly 1.0 hp per ton, but traveled at a very low S/L rate. This is my first assumption.

    My second assumption was that it takes about 40 hp per ton to stay on a plane.

    My understanding is that the power curve for a displacement boat looks a lot like a hockey stick. At low S/Ls the curve of power needed has a relatively shallow slope. But as the S/L rate approaches 1.0, it starts to rocket upward, forming almost a vertical line. I read somewhere that to get just one more knot out of the Lucitainia, they had to nearly double the hp.

    A planing boat power curve, as I understand it, looks like a broken hockey stick. It follows the form of the displacement boat one until it reaches a very high S/L. At that point, it starts to climb up its bow wave. And it may stay there. But with an extra boost of power, and the right stern design, it can climb on top of its bow wave and experience less resistance. This is why the throttle can be backed off. It takes less power to stay on a plane than it does to get onto a plane. Sometimes far less. But to stay on a plane, one still needs enough power to push the boat at a very high S/L rate. Below that, the boat settles back into displacement mode, and the speed drops considerably.

    I assume it takes about 40 hp per ton to stay on a plane. If this assumption is wrong, my claim is bunk. But if it is right, a planing boat needs at least eight times the hp per ton as displacement boat. The actual number is probably considerably higher, because it needs that extra boost to get it onto the plane.

    Also, the displacement boat can use far less power by simply backing off the throttle and excepting a lower speed.

    A planing boat cannot do this after it is already at its lowest planing speed.

    I'll be back with a hypothetical example.
     
  5. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Where are the numbers for your assumptions coming from?
     
  6. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    An engine from the 50's had a service cycle of about 60,000 miles between overhauls. A modern engine will have a cycle of at 250,000 miles. The myth of a better technology in the olden times has no data to back it up; it is the usual dream of the good ol' times.
     
  7. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    OK. I'm back.

    Let's suppose a 40 mile beach camping cruise with two different boats.

    The first, I'll call 'bounce'. It is a 16 ft planing powerboat with a Beam of 7 ft, and a 14 ft LWL. It has these proportions, so it can get on a plane sooner and have a higher top speed. I'll give 'bounce' a 60 hp engine, which will probably be the minimum that will work for her. Her total displacement will be one ton. I Will also give her a very high efficiency engine which will produce 14.5 hp hrs/gallon. I'll put her cruising speed at 20 mph.

    Her displacement hull counterpart, named 'split', will have the same beam + length sum, but will be 18 ft long and 5 ft wide. Her LWL will be 17 ft. She will have a 7 hp engine. She will cruise at 5.6 mph. Her S/L rate will be 1.30. She also displaces 1.0 ton.

    Now, let's see how much fuel they consume on the trip.

    'Bounce' will take just two hours total cruising time to complete the trip. Her fuel consumption will be about:
    (2 hrs x 40 hp)/14.5 hp hr/gal or 5.52 gallons.

    'Split' will take 7.15 hrs cruising time to complete the trip. Her fuel consumption will be:
    (7.15 hrs x 5 hp)/11.0 hp hrs/gallon or 3.25 gallons.

    Not quite what I expected, but 'bounce' still uses 1.70 times as much fuel as 'Split'.

    Nowadays, that seems insignificant. Any wonder why there are far more 'Bouncers' than 'Splits' around? The extra fuel cost is far out weighed by the added convenience of a much quicker trip.

    But if the fuel were rationed, there might be far less of it to use for pleasure boating.

    Although Split is much slower, she is amenable to alternative means of power. She can be rowed. And she can be sailed. Electric propulsion will probably work better with her.
    Not only that, but she can be slowed down, which will cut her power needs considerably.

    If she made her trip at 5.17 mph, instead of 5.6 mph, her fuel use would be affected as follows:

    ((5.17 mph/5.6 mph) ^2) x 3.25 gallons = 2.86 gallons.

    In this case, assuming 'Bounce' cannot be slowed down without losing her plane, she will now consume 1.93 times as much fuel as 'Split'.

    One possible flaw with this analysis, is the smallness of the boats. If 'Bounce' and 'Split' were twice as long, the disparity in fuel use would be greater. 'Split' would be about 40% faster, while 'Bounce' would probably travel at the same old speed. This would cut 'Split' s fuel use per ton by about 40%.

    Is it any wonder why they make ships as long as possible?
     
  8. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    However, if you have to load the boats with 3.5 times the supplies to account for the difference in time for long passage, the numbers change enormously. In fact, the slow boat may not be able to carry all the necessary supplies.
     
  9. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Old Woodbutcher

    Teslas have over 20 lbs of silver per car. Get the jump and buy silver before the ecar companies make the price skyrocket. They will try to hoard it for future production.
     
  10. wet feet
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    wet feet Senior Member

    Which would render the passage impossible.Saving the boat owner the cost of the fuel and leaving him to plan some other way to reach the destination or to decide that it wasn't really necessary.Electric power may or may not be the answer but can anybody deny that the much greater simplicity ought to make those days when an engine just won't start history.No more concern about diesel bug, just about zero servicing,no major trim changes to the boat as the fuel reserve drops,no need to route exhausts through parts of the accommodation,no skin fittings.It may not be all bad.It will require a different mindset to blithely assuming that pulling up for a huge tank of cheap fuel is an entitlement.
     
  11. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Instead we will have bad cells on batteries, failed solar panels, faulty charge controllers, broken electrical systems, explosions on battery banks and corroded connections. Zero servicing is a fantasy.
     
  12. wet feet
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    wet feet Senior Member

    That look like the outline for a business plan.Failing to prepare for such an outcome would be a lot like being a mechanic specialising in Stanley steamers;you will still be able to apply your skills but only to a small proportion of the group participating in the relevant mode of transport.

    By way of comparison I have a compact phone in my pocket and it does far more than it's nineties equivalent.Have internal combustion engines and their associated systems made anything like the same amount of progress in the same time frame?Solar panels are yielding greater outputs per unit area and battery packs are no longer tons of lead-acid cells.I made a comment about near zero servicing and I think it will be the case as most planing powerboats already have most of the systems nominated for likely failure and would be eliminating the parts associated with the internal combustion powerplants and the servicing that goes with them.Thus becoming less complex.

    As it is,a fair number of ships are using electric power,provided by onboard generators, and there may be interesting developments on the horizon.Such as the rim drive propellors mentioned in this article: Are rim-driven propulsors the future? https://www.rina.org.uk/Are_rim-driven_propulsors_the_future.html Which are already available on at least one small RIB with electric power. RS Pulse 58: Can this all-electric RIB bring battery power into the mainstream? https://www.mby.com/gear/rs-pulse-58-all-electric-rib-battery-power-109686

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Earlier systems can be repaired and maintained with basic tools and minimal technical knowledge. Modern systems are controlled by computer systems that require expensive equipment and training to be able to troubleshoot and repair. I agree that they needed more maintenance. However, electrical systems require maintenance and service that is beyond the majority of boat owners. Also, even though they eliminate part associated with ICE, they incorporate a huge amount of new parts. For example, electronic controllers, chargers, battery banks, computer area networks and electric motors.
     
  14. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    I bought my Prius Prime when gas was (still is) cheap so high MPG models were also cheap, expecting gas to jump if something popped off with Iran. That sort of fuel price manipulation can happen anytime for any fake reason.
    Yeah, there is some stuff buried deep in the drive-train that is very expensive to fix but so far Prius has very good reputation for long term reliability, and a lot of that is how the hybrid system is detuned and sort of buffers everything. You don't need to start the ICE for trips under 25 miles and hybrid takes a load off the brakes.
    Because the body work is not repairable after even minor crash there are quite a few perfectly running low mile Prius for sale in 'totaled' condition for under $4K if you need a engine/hybrid/batt transplant. Nearly new main batts are $1000 on Ebay but IIRC they are about $10,000 from Toyota.
    In theory the price has doubled, but when you factor in about $6000 in Fed and State rebates, and MPG, and low maintenance costs for first 250K, and amazing advanced features like Radar Cruise and after market Fully Self Driving it was a no brainer.
     

  15. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    You are confusing technology with politics. Regulations make some options better than others. For example, I can ride a motorcycle that has no seatbelts, airbags, side impact protection or catalytic converter. If I could buy an equivalent car, it would sell for about $8-9K.
     
    hoytedow likes this.
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