Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

[RHough]

More simple questions:

Was the Hydroptere effort funded by mega millions of Euros as opposed to less than 100,000 Euros for all the kiters on the planet?

Yes/Probably So What?

Did they also cherry pick their perfect site based on boat type and capabilities?

Picking a site and building a site are different. Yes, everyone should be free to pick a site.

Can L'Hydroptere run in a groomed ditch?

Yes. They haven't built one AFAIK, but they could.

Does it take more than ten people to prep Hydrop for a run?

See Answer #1 Who cares?

Do they sweep into town prior to a run with an inordinately large entourage, commanding obedience?

See Answer #1 Who cares?

These are yes/no answers only.

Based on cost factors alone, the kites are far more productive in their efforts than L'Hydroptere will ever experience. Guess that's the way of the modern world where we all toss ourselves prostrate at the altar of the Almighty Dollar/Euro/ whatever. The common guy with the simple solution isn't welcome in this barn anymore. He's been supplanted by foolishness, high dig budgets and the resultant distancing process from the everyday sailor.

Get used to it guys, folks like these Hydrop apologists breathe different air than you and you'll only be able to take that away with pure anarchy. Go read the process surrounding the Bolshevik Revolution and you'll get a good look at your futures in the matter. The Reds vs The Whites... all over again. And pay attention when they build their Gulags.

The Hydrop guys are simply protecting that which they find most important. It isn't about the exultation of man at his finest, most pure form form. It's all about technology and the altar which it pre-supposes upon you. You common guys are merely fodder while the techno cash cows denigrate your position long enough and hard enough to pummel you into the ground.

Get used to it. It's all around you.

You seem to have a problem with Hyrdoptre, why? How they spend their money in pursuit of their goal concerns you exactly how? I'm most certainly not a Hydroptre guy (I think they have it wrong) if they share my low opinion of artificial courses it is incidental.

I hope you are not comparing the kiters to "everyday sailors" that is quite a stretch. I agree 100% that the speeds the simple kites reach make the Hydroptre program look even sillier than it does on its own. But I get no joy from bleating about how those with the resources spend their money. The kite system used for recreation/racing/speed does not scale to anything the "everyday sailor" needs or wants.

You celebrate "man at his finest, most pure form" yet refuse to accept that the remarkable achievements are lessened by the use of an artificial (dare I say impure?) environment to set these "pure" records.

Same water, equal opportunity is that to much to ask?

 

[cardsinplay]

You seem to have a problem with Hyrdoptre, why? How they spend their money in pursuit of their goal concerns you exactly how? I'm most certainly not a Hydroptre guy (I think they have it wrong) if they share my low opinion of artificial courses it is incidental.

No problem at all with Hydroptere. What they do is interesting and unique. The references are simply in regard to the soft and/or, hard attacks on the kiters as not worthy, or not about natural acts, or any of the other bogus arguments that have been proferred.

The kite guys are the real deal and if you knew any of them, you'd be saying the same thing. Hydrop, by its very nature as a guarded, high tech venture, has with it the aura and reality of a carefully funded, high dollar secretiveness. This is common stuff when big bucks are being tossed about. The powers that be in an organization of that type go straight to, "we need to be careful about who gets this info and who does not. Keep your mouths shut, don't do interviews unless authorized and share no photos unless told to do so." Kiters are virtually a 180 from that paradigm.

When Hydrop biffed it badly and did an endo, where was the video of the process, if they are all about being regular folks? Oh, a video eventually did appear that had been carefully edited, but that's not the same as having a minutes later Youtube from Luderitz, when somebody blows through the course at 50+ knots, or does a body skate because they bought the farm on their run. The whole thing about the kiting activities is about , "OK, here we are, shoot video of us, shoot stills, blab about it on your blog and spread the word that we snagged the title and we're not looking back," I see none of that from Hydroptere.

I hope you are not comparing the kiters to "everyday sailors" that is quite a stretch. I agree 100% that the speeds the simple kites reach make the Hydroptre program look even sillier than it does on its own. But I get no joy from bleating about how those with the resources spend their money. The kite system used for recreation/racing/speed does not scale to anything the "everyday sailor" needs or wants.

Kiters are everyday sailors compared to any of the guys in their matching Devo jumpsuits who sit on the Hydrop superstructure. The whole Hydrop thing is high dollar and plaster the environment with overkill like a CIA operation. The kiters, by comparison, are straight-forward dudes and dudesses (by the way, where are the women on the Hydrop effort) who show-up on their own with their speed gear and make it all happen as simply and without adornment as it gets. Maybe you've never been to a big surf, kite or sailboard festival, but it's conspicuously low key with simple rigs, accessible participants and folks just hanging around the beach while their friends go out and give it their best. Just as an aside, a woman kiter broke 50 knots this last session. Have any women yet, piloted Hydroptere for an over 50 run? Yeah, that's what I thought, it's all about exclusivity.

Hydrop's thing, by comparison, involves a carefully managed dock, crew and workers who are not out among the people and there is absolutely no accessible options for boarding the boat and snooping around. Major difference and it's not about being a regular sailor. But, you knew that.

The kites could be purchased by anyone, Randy, the boards are custom built, usually by the guy who uses it, or someone he knows in the greater circle of common folks. Trying to segregate yourself from what is easily gotten is not the same as being kept away from it due to money concerns.

You celebrate "man at his finest, most pure form" yet refuse to accept that the remarkable achievements are lessened by the use of an artificial (dare I say impure?) environment to set these "pure" records.

It's not artificail, and that's where the rub is for you, apparently. It's water sand and wind. Where in the rules does it state that the speed run location in Namibia is artificial? Gosh the WSSRC even sends a couple of guys down there each year to dial-in the whole thing. You call that artificial? The WSSRC calls it a world record, simple and clean.

Same water, equal opportunity is that to much to ask?

Not too much to ask. The day you get F1 cars to run on the same tarmac as Top Fuel dragsters, you get back to me. Same holds true for top speed land based record holders. When you get that same F1 car out to Bonneville, just ask and I'll meet you there. Take a World of Outlaws ride off the Knoxville track and take that bad boy to the banked surface at Daytona. Do you really think they will even try to get out on the track? You know as well as I that it isn't going to happen, so why the issue?

 

[Blue Leader]

R Hough-

Sorry I had to much coffee before lunch.......I apologize. Its lesson time now.

Define "open water"............

Its called an OUTRIGHT Sailing speed record..(101th time)....there is no "compete equally" other than it has to be on water (with depth greater than half the beam), powered by the wind and with a human onboard! If you want to race something more "equal" go race a lazer aound marks down on the Charles River.

Kiters didn't complain about Hydroptere's 2009 record when she beat the kite records because Hydroptere could carry the Trimble GPS (they couldn't) and sail in rougher water.

Kiters just kept working and developing and guess what.......they got faster....much fasters. And if the big boats put as much effort into development as you did into arguing against artifical environments in outright records.....they'd pick up a knot or 2.

Yes, kites ran in a man made trench in 2010. Note: Windsurfers were in a trench in 2004
Kites would run 52 and 53 kt 500's outside the trench right now.....and they have GPS speeds from 2009 to prove it!!!

Kites picked up 2.5 kts in 2010 because they were racing a straighter line between the start and finish.....something you have to do when you cant carry the big GPS units that Hydroptere carrys...........remember, GPS's speeds over the track sailed are only allowed to be used by the big boats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! where is your objection to that...... Crickets!!!

Ground effect.......a few scientists ran some numbers because the big (nice, fair, level playing field) boats and guys like you got all scared about the kites and the first to 50kt record....something had to be done......So, the big sail boats said......if we cant beat them let's regulate them so we can have a chance at 50kts first!!!!!!. The scientists claimed that a planning hull in water depths less than half the beam of the hull creates a pressure wave between the hull and the seafloor...this pressure wave supposedly creates lift which supposedly increases speeds. Here's the problem......the big sail boats are sailing in ground effect too!!!!!!

Nice idea about the power boat.......how about when the kiters use veggie oil to calm the waters in the trench even more????? Ooops there goes 60 kts!!!! Start crying now.......dont worry, you can still run around in "open water" in your lazer or in Hydroptere in 6th place overall.

Dont hate the player, hate the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now i'm having fun buddy!!

There are comparable records.........5 kiters with comparable speeds on the same course demolished your French foiler and its outright record!!!!

Yes, Kites did 55.65 kts in a trench. No, but kites would still be faster than Hydroptere outside of a trench and therefore still the current Outright world record holders.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gary Baigent]

Blue, you're entering into that esteemed and hallowed area reserved only for Doug - and only he is allowed to repeat (with various small changes) the riveting same old song.
And for defecation's sake Chris, it is Hydroptere, not your lazy Hydropt ... and a word in YOUR shell-like ear, that last post; is it not slightly manic to almost being demented? Cool it cobra, go sailing or ride your Harley/Ducati or whatever.

 

[RHough]

Yes, Kites did 55.65 kts in a trench. No, but kites would still be faster than Hydroptere outside of a trench and therefore still the current Outright world record holders.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my point. They DON'T NEED the trench to be fastest. By using the groomed trench, they open the records they have rightly EARNED to question.

BTW I think the idea of carrying a recorder and picking the fastest 500M out of a longer run to claim a record is every bit as bogus as sailing in a trench.

IMNSHO record runs for 500M and 1 nm should have these requirements:
Speed over measured distance, course set by authority ratifying record.
Speed record to be average of runs in both directions.
This does not force 90deg +/- courses. Relatively simple telemetry could record time into the course from each end and stop the clock after 500m or 1nm traveled. This allows the same TWA on both runs, but requires the vessels to sail on both tacks.

 

[Boston]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzkulFGa4Mc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRuLpZoTIoQ&feature=related

Hydropter hit 62 knots I think it was at peak speed and Sailrocket hit something like 52, both in there failed attempts at the speed record, ( both wrecked ) and both where still increasing in speed when they wrecked, so it seems this argument is kinda pointless as either of these "boats" ( sorry had to ) is pretty much well on the way to taking back the record.

the real innovation though is in the "track". This idea of preparing a ditch with the calmest water possible in the highest winds possible will in the end prove the defining characteristic for any speed run. The thing to remember is both Boats crashed because of rough water not because they had any structural inability to go even faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te2VC8WHUW8&feature=related

interestingly enough barefoot water skiers have hit 100+ mph so something similar is bound to be attainable with a kite, however speeds in excess of 158 mph ( 137 knots ) have already been reached with ice boats ( E Skeeter ). From an experimental point of view the purely mechanical systems have already blown away the systems that incorporate man into the structural make up. Once the finesse of control that is buggering the mechanical systems attempts to make it 500 meters is resolved ( computer stabilization as is used already in the Wobblin Goblin maybe ) there is little to prevent Hydropter or Sailrocket from shattering the 100 knot barrier.

cheers
and go team everybody
its a great race and there is lots more to come

B

 

[cardsinplay]

...And for defecation's sake Chris, it is Hydroptere, not your lazy Hydropt ... and a word in YOUR shell-like ear, that last post; is it not slightly manic to almost being demented? ...go sailing or ride your Harley/Ducati or whatever.

I like that reference, Gary... defecation. Sounds so.... earthy. ;-)

I got tired of writing out the full name all the time and didn't like the business of saying, "those guys", either, so it became Hydrop and I'm rolling with it.

Well, manic, demented... I've been called all that before. While none of it's true, I felt it appropriate to answer all of Randy's musings and be specific about it when I did. I happen to like Randy a lot. He's smart, has a great vocabulary and addresses issues in a fashion that most folks here never consider. I hope he feels the same way about me. You get the same consideration.

I'm not talking about my bikes. A couple of hints, though. One of them is old, was highly regarded in its day and is super simple to wrench.

 

[RHough]

It's not artificail, and that's where the rub is for you, apparently. It's water sand and wind. Where in the rules does it state that the speed run location in Namibia is artificial? Gosh the WSSRC even sends a couple of guys down there each year to dial-in the whole thing. You call that artificial? The WSSRC calls it a world record, simple and clean.

Was the trench dug and groomed? Yes, that makes it an artificial course. The rules don't preclude digging speed trenches so it is legal.

Not too much to ask. The day you get F1 cars to run on the same tarmac as Top Fuel dragsters, you get back to me. Same holds true for top speed land based record holders. When you get that same F1 car out to Bonneville, just ask and I'll meet you there. Take a World of Outlaws ride off the Knoxville track and take that bad boy to the banked surface at Daytona. Do you really think they will even try to get out on the track? You know as well as I that it isn't going to happen, so why the issue?

You don't grasp the concept. Road race cars race on road race tracks, Dragsters on drag strips, etc. Lap records for each class use the same track, ET's and Top Speeds use the same track. LSR attempts at Bonneville are over the same measured distance for motorcycles and jet cars. Only the kiteboarders set records that their competition cannot use to try to beat them. That is the issue. You chose not to recognize that it is an issue. It is as if your infatuation with kiteboards has blinded you to the obvious disparity.

What bothers you about a program that can afford to be elite? People with money to spend can do things that are beyond the reach of those that lack the funding. Do you think it is some sort of cosmic punishment that Hydroptre was been beaten by low tech kites? I think the simple answer is that the Hydroptre program has blinded itself to other possibilities because they convinced themselves that there basic platform is the way to go. This is not uncommon at any level of finance. People will expend almost any about of energy not to have their basic concepts proved wrong.

The kites were as fast or faster before the trench. They had a choice, continue developing their systems to improve speed or dig a trench to change the conditions to something only they can exploit. That sounds pretty elitist to me.

 

[Blue Leader]

Now kiters are elitists! Wow.... here come the Bolsheviks.

I was right you are a liberal. And now im leaving town before you open the gulags.

Have fun fellas.......55.65kts!!! Peace out!

 

[Boston]

speaking of which
what do the rules say about sailing behind an object designed to break the wind for you

I'll try and find the rules again but if anyone has a link handy feel free to post it and if your really feelin helpful note the paragraph that specifically allows a vehicle to run behind a wind breaking artificial object, stationary or mobile?

 

[Boston]

well this is kinda interesting

the 2010 rules get interesting right off the bat

The Course of 500 m PDF Print E-mail

1. GENERAL
The purpose of these rules is to enable attempts to be made on Sailing Speed Records in any part of the world under comparable conditions. They do not form the conditions of any prize or trophy, nor are they sailing instructions.

there is however absolutely nothing about objects external to the vehicle which assist in breaking the wind or smoothing the water.

the site also doe's not list Hydropter at all in the 500 meter class and has Hydropter at 51 knots as the fastest over 1 mile in 09

have the kites not gone faster over the one mile course ?

 

[cardsinplay]

It is as if your infatuation with kiteboards has blinded you to the obvious disparity.

Yep, I'm infatuated with kiteboarding. I'm also infatuated with L'Hydroptere's high tech for a purpose. Both sailing types have met their threshold of interest for me for different reasons. I see Hydrop as a highly functional solution for a very specific bandwidth of application. I do not see it as a tooling around boat as some would claim by saying that it can go to sea.

I couldn't imagine many boats that would be more one trick pony-esque at sea than Hydrop. A day on that boat would be fun for about one, maybe two hours and then poof the deal has been done and I'd want oughta there. Something like riding on a bullet train only with no real destination oriented purpose behind the act. I wonder how mundane it is to sail on Hydrop when she is not on foils. Kinda like asking a thoroughbred to go trail riding and just as useless.

As to kiting... I'm drawn to the athleticism and affordability of the whole thing. I also like the fact that kites can be ridden in a wide variety of ways on a wide variety of surfaces and conditions. I won't belabor the point now, but they are extemely versatile all year round.

Besides road racing, I also used to ride Observed Trials. A part of the kiting thing hits that same place in my head and soul that I used to feel when riding the wilderness from scored section to section and then being tested on precision, braking, body and throttle control, the whole tamale. When a sport touches those places, it's hard to shake it out of your consciousness.

What bothers you about a program that can afford to be elite?

Nothing, really, as long as one addresses the fact that the more cash one spends and the more "elite" in manner one becomes, the further one moves away from the zone of an everyday sailor. That was my observation and not some issue because Hydrop has a budget.

That sounds pretty elitist to me.

Perceived elitism, or factual elitism?

I see the ditch structure as a journeyman's, common sense solution. I grew-up in a blue collar neighborhood and the whole thing strikes me as the type of solution I would see regular guys effecting on a daily basis. Now, I suppose that a guy who lives under the viaduct would look at a blue collar worker and call him "elitist", but most folks out there walking around on this planet would not give you that read, should they be asked. Blue collar guys are the epitomy of being Joe-Six-Pack. The Hydrop guys hit me as the crystal, wine and cheese crowd. Make your own conclusions.

 

[Gary Baigent]

Blue, I know in the US that the brain dead cable channel Fox Noise has indoctrinated many US ****** to fear and hate the word liberal. Surprisingly,(to you) most of the world interprets the word to means something completely different, like its true dictionary meaning ... perhaps you should check it out ... and if you don't like it, well, we won't be too upset if you depart.

 

[RHough]

I see the ditch structure as a journeyman's, common sense solution. I grew-up in a blue collar neighborhood and the whole thing strikes me as the type of solution I would see regular guys effecting on a daily basis. Now, I suppose that a guy who lives under the viaduct would look at a blue collar worker and call him "elitist", but most folks out there walking around on this planet would not give you that read, should they be asked. Blue collar guys are the epitomy of being Joe-Six-Pack. The Hydrop guys hit me as the crystal, wine and cheese crowd. Make your own conclusions.

If, with their millions the Hdyroptre team had built and groomed a trench for a 500M record run, you and the kiters would be screaming foul at the top of your lungs. Because the guys you like did it for their record makes it okay?

Boston's quote from the rules is pretty interesting. Comparable conditions indeed.

Boston, re 1nm record: Maybe the proletariat can't afford a longer trench?

 

[RHough]

Now kiters are elitists! Wow.... here come the Bolsheviks.

I was right you are a liberal. And now im leaving town before you open the gulags.

Have fun fellas.......55.65kts!!! Peace out!

Promise?

For the record, I'm a Republican.