Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

Are you implying that the fence is no longer there?

 

When the law is an ***, the law is an *** - and we're not talking about the fargo trucking law - but sneaky cheating. Anyway, who are these sniffy and righteous, law abiding turkeys rabbiting on here; I thought we were anarchists, just not quite so gung ho as in SA.
Put the boards on "open" water and set a record, then we'll recognize immediately what they've achieved. Fairly simply suggestion.
Chris, your wheelchair humour is maximum class.

 

I said no such thing. I said: "Everyone in this thread is playing fast and loose to cast their favourite speed sailing machine in a good light."

I also said: "I'm not dissing the kite guys. They have the sailing speed record."

This is old news. Sailing and politics go hand in hand. Vested interests at all levels.

What is ground effect?
What benefit is there to ground effect?
What are the limits of ground effect?
How does ground effect work sailing in waves?

When was it removed?

No one wants to address this simple question:

If the kite and board combination is so good, why don't they set landsailing speed records?

The answer of course is that you cannot get the L/D ratio you need to sail at high multiples of wind speed with a kite and a skateboard.

I have nothing against the kiters. They hold the record under the rules. No argument from me. That the rules allow the artificial course is a fact. It is my opinion that the records set in the ditch are not directly comparable to those set in other conditions. I also freely acknowledge that Sail Rocket or Hydroptre or any other program could go out and build a course suited to their boat too. The fact that the other programs have not put the record out of reach for a system as inefficient as a kiteboard says more about the sorry state of the other programs than how great kiteboards are.

Before anyone goes off ranting about powered systems etc. I should also state that IMO boats with engine driven movable ballast cannot be fairly compared to boats that do not. Boats that use stored power to shift ballast, trim sails, cant masts should be separate from those that do not.

 

The fence may still be there but it is not part of the course they were using this year.

Im not sure I really get the relevance of kites not being able to compete (sucessfully) in the land speed record stakes though? Is that just to highlight some of the many limits of kites?

 

Thanks for clearing that up, I don't follow the events at the ditch all that closely. Did they dig a second ditch for the new course?

More of a comment that as far as efficient design, traction kites are not very far up the food chain.

There are some factors in the human on a kiteboard that I find very interesting.

The water part of the system is a planing hull. The human provides some shock absorbing so that lateral force can be maintained. It also isolates the kite from the motion at the water. This does not scale up to work in the size of waves normally associated with 30-40 knot breeze. Thus the system must have an unusual combination of smooth water and high wind velocity to work.

What I see is a fairly low efficiency (L/D) kite, pulling a fairly low efficiency foil (edge of speed board) to a predictably low multiple of wind speed in big breeze.

If we take the 3x winds speed that the landsailer has, 60 knots should require only 20 knots of breeze, but no watercraft has reached this number. Relatively smooth water and 20 knots are not all that hard to find. The problem for more conventional designs are hydrofoil related around "the 50 knot barrier". I think the team that can figure out how to use a planing hull and keep the lateral resistance foil in the water and working will find the speed limited by the inefficiency of the traction kite as a power source.

I happen to think the surface piercing foils of the Hydroptre(sp?) are the wrong way to go also. The world water speed record (317MPH average of two runs) is held by a planing hull. If lifting hydrofoils were faster, the fastest boats on water would use them. It may be that lifting foils can handle higher speeds in rougher water than a planing hull can, but the layout of Hydroptre has a few things working against it. Its heeling arm gets longer the higher it flies and the righting arm gets shorter.

We know what works for speed under sail, a rigid wing.
We know what works for speed on the water, planing hulls.

What we don't have is a program that has put the two together to set a water sailing speed record. This is quite a challenge, a fully developed 20 knot breeze gives 6-9 foot waves with surface chop. Difficult conditions for many planing hulls. Particularly difficult for a sailing vessel since any sail or wing attached to the vessel will see flow disturbed by the motion of the hull.

It may be that the kiteboard is the best solution, but that won't be proven with any validity until they prove themselves faster in the same water as everyone else. At this point in time I think the kites will still be faster over 500 meters.

What I would like to see is a requirement for two way runs with the average taken for the record. This puts the kiteboards at an advantage compared to programs that are building one tack wonders.

Open water and two way runs makes it an even playing field. My bet is on the kites for the immediate future.

 

interesting suggestion
on another thread one of our member suggested an air cushion ama cat with a rigid wing sail. should kick *** in smooth conditions with even light winds as the hull would be virtually frictionless

 

My bits are in red

 

My apologies if that tweaked your sensibilities, Gary. My use of the "power chair" originates from the folks here in the US, who get these things and are not functionally disabled; as in paralyzed from the waste down. Seems we have a technology fix for everything, including serious laziness.

We have these ridiculous fat folks who complain enough that the Social Security system agrees to let them have a chair. There's a big industry here to enable those lazy buggers. The companies even advertise on TV, "if Social Security turns you down after we pre-approve your application, we'll give you your power chair for free". Please, let's just have a whole society of fat folks, who could stand-up and walk if they wanted, buzzing around on electric chairs.

So, we have a cadre of folks who could, otherwise, get themselves around just fine if they wanted and they are just too damn lazy to stop eating and exercise. Those are the folks I'm poking fun at with the imagery

Before anyone gets up on their back legs to castigate me for such abusive posturing, the sarcasm is not directed to legitimate handicapped folks who gain new freedom with a power chair. They are the real deal and have my most sincere care and consideration.

 

Q. Where does this crazy idea or notion to have kites run in rougher water, "open water" or "offshore" conditions for an Outright speed record come from?..... "Fast and loose with the rules", "artificial course", "same water as everyone else".........All these smart guys here and comments like these are truely incredible.

Where do the fastest powerboats run? Ultra flat water!!!! Where do the fastest cars run? Flat surfaces!!!! Where do the fastest horses, row boats, motorcycles, snow mobiles, jet ski's, humans etc...all run........everybody in unison now.......FLAT SURFACES!!!!!!

A. This idea of rougher water for an Outright record comes from people who have given up..... from individuals who have lost all hope in their vehicles.

Kites havent given up.......they will be the first to 60kts and they will continue to develop and go much faster.

If you want to race on rough surfaces then go compete in the Vendee or the Paris to Dakar!!!!!

 

What you omit is the fact that wind creates waves. Any wind driven vessel on water has to deal with waves as part of the natural system. Other wind driven speed runs made on flat surfaces (land and ice sailing) take advantage of natural conditions and are much more efficient. Even in flat water the kites don't hit 1.5 times wind speed. Other sailing vessels reach higher multiples of wind speed 30 knots in 10 knots of breeze is about where USA17 was during the last America's Cup. One reason that these vessels can't reach 60 knots in 20 knots of breeze is the change in sea state that accompanies the increase in wind.

No one is advocating sailing in rougher water than natural conditions, just pointing out that the kites have set their records in an artificial environment. Why is that so hard to grasp?

I have no doubt that in the same water kites are more than competitive. I think the unnatural environment used tarnishes what is a remarkable achievement. Human powered bikes have reached 80+ MPH unassisted, 152 MPH pacing behind a wind break. Are those directly comparable? How are sailing records set in the trench comparable to records set in open water?

I think it is wonderful that a system as simple as a kite, man (person), and board can compete with and beat a high tech effort like Hydroptre. It is just to bad that the kites decided to take advantage of an unnatural course that the rules allow. It hurts their credibility.

As far as the American vs French thing goes. I somehow don't think the wind and sea know or care about the circumstances of your birth.

 

I wonder what happened to this program? Monofoiler

Pretty lofty goals and a working model in 2006. Where are they now?

 

Sorry if this is old news ... the glider towing a foil idea has been done at model scale!


Video


Very interesting to see the ventilation bubble from the surface down the tow line, looks high drag to me.

 

R Hough-

The only artificial thing here is your argument! and your statements are false.

Kites on courseboards exceed 1.5x wind speeds......in open water!!!! Do your research. They are reaching speeds of 28 to 30 kts in 10MPH of wind!!!! Kites on speed boards in Namibia are averaging above 50 kts in less than 35kts of wind......1.5x wind speed!!!!!

(whinning sounds)...Other sailing boats go faster in 10 kts......which has nothing to do with the record. But now that you said it, Go put US-17 in 30 knots of wind and see what happens...........na, make it 50kts. Or should we limit the outright record to "offshore" waters and winds below 25kts????

I think I figured it out......you are a liberal. regulate, regulate, regulate.......

Its called an Outright world record for the 100th time..... If you want to race "offshore" and compete for the Outright then go do it and be prepared to get smoked!!!!! Or you could contact the WSSRC and ISAF and start a new record catagory for offshore speed records.....and you will still be slower than the kites!

And define offshore for us....this will be fun!!!!

 

!!!! Geee !!!! you are all excited !!!!

I didn't say offshore, I said open water where all types may compete equally.

You fail do address the fact that the kite records are set in an artificial environment. Do you deny that they are?

I asked for an explanation about ground effect as it applies to speed sailing, again all I see in your responses are more !!!!

How about they use a power boat to provide a flat wake and a wind break for the rider/sailor? Would that be okay too?

Comparable records are set in comparable conditions. The kite record was set in artificial conditions, this is fact.

I don't deny the kites have the record. I don't dislike kites. I am impressed with the level over performance they have achieved. I am not impressed with records set in artificial environments being compared to those that did not take advantage of man made aids.

Simple questions:
Where the kite records set in a man made ditch? (Yes/No)
Would the kites be as fast without the aid of the ditch? (Yes/No)

!!!!! are not valid answers.

R

 

More simple questions:

Was the Hydroptere effort funded by mega millions of Euros as opposed to less than 100,000 Euros for all the kiters on the planet?

Did they also cherry pick their perfect site based on boat type and capabilities?

Can L'Hydroptere run in a groomed ditch?

Does it take more than ten people to prep Hydrop for a run?

Do they sweep into town prior to a run with an inordinately large entourage, commanding obedience?

These are yes/no answers only.

Based on cost factors alone, the kites are far more productive in their efforts than L'Hydroptere will ever experience. Guess that's the way of the modern world where we all toss ourselves prostrate at the altar of the Almighty Dollar/Euro/ whatever. The common guy with the simple solution isn't welcome in this barn anymore. He's been supplanted by foolishness, high dig budgets and the resultant distancing process from the everyday sailor.

Get used to it guys, folks like these Hydrop apologists breathe different air than you and you'll only be able to take that away with pure anarchy. Go read the process surrounding the Bolshevik Revolution and you'll get a good look at your futures in the matter. The Reds vs The Whites... all over again. And pay attention when they build their Gulags.

The Hydrop guys are simply protecting that which they find most important. It isn't about the exultation of man at his finest, most pure form form. It's all about technology and the altar which it pre-supposes upon you. You common guys are merely fodder while the techno cash cows denigrate your position long enough and hard enough to pummel you into the ground.

Get used to it. It's all around you.