In search of the prefect Proa

[bearflag]

In bending, Aluminum definitely has a better specific bending stiffness.

This is the one that usually counts the tension, and compression most materials are overkill ::caveat other circumstances::

I should be more understanding for I'm a composites kind of guy... and I'm always fighting the same fight... for the peoples that think carbon is the be-all... end-all.

You probably have seen my whispers of Fiber Metal Laminates. S2 glass is much more impressive than Carbon or Aramids when in laminates. I can send you research papers, pretty amazing stuff...

On a related note I had a good conversation today, and I think I know how to actually build one-of-prototype stuff, like say a boat out of GLARE.

Its begging a beach-cat sized test toy, to test the materials, hydro (shape) and sail (plan).

 

[Inquisitor]

This is the one that usually counts the tension, and compression most materials are overkill ::caveat other circumstances::

You probably have seen my whispers of Fiber Metal Laminates. S2 glass is much more impressive than Carbon or Aramids when in laminates. I can send you research papers, pretty amazing stuff...

On a related note I had a good conversation today, and I think I know how to actually build one-of-prototype stuff, like say a boat out of GLARE.

Its begging a beach-cat sized test toy, to test the materials, hydro (shape) and sail (plan).

Fiber Metal Laminates No, I haven't really surfed the forum lately... just doing spot searches for the stuff I'm currently working. These days... that's Proa's, Lindsay Loyd, and wing sails. Is your term the same as metal matrix composites? I worked on Aluminum and Titanium matrix with Boron fibers back in the '80s. Either way... I certainly would be very interested in the S2 research papers.

 

[bearflag]

Fiber Metal Laminates No, I haven't really surfed the forum lately... just doing spot searches for the stuff I'm currently working. These days... that's Proa's, Lindsay Loyd, and wing sails. Is your term the same as metal matrix composites? I worked on Aluminum and Titanium matrix with Boron fibers back in the '80s. Either way... I certainly would be very interested in the S2 research papers.

No, glare is a GRP/Aluminum sandwich composite. It is what the wings in the new Airbus 380 are made form and what future boing plans are going to be made of. It is in some more high performance aircraft as well.

I attached a PDF, I think the first picture in "Impact Damage Mechanisms in Fiber Metal Laminates" says it all.

I have a ton of other material if you are interested, repair, manufacture, material properties, tests, etc.

I am by no means an expert, but I'm not a stupid guy, the thing I have always tried to figure out was how to manufacture anything useful without a massive industrial base. But I think I cracked that today. Probably a bit labor intensive, but meh, my labor is free if its my own project.

I don't think I would build my boat out of the stuff today, but like I said, I think it is probably worth building a beach-cat or something.

::edit:: S2 is just another word for high strength unidirectional fiberglass.

 

[yipster]

since a while i cant reach boatdesign -as only one- anymore on the net
checked blokked sites and tried firefox with same result, with another pc no problem rara?

building a -big- boat is a bit bigger project but nice proa, fine drawings and compliments Inquisitor
as we know the longer the hull the better the seaworthiness, long hull in pro is fine, personally i would consider simpler building method, even hard chine. cant place glare under on the english wheel but for millitairy boats it sure has pottential i would think

dozen other thoughts like having the house to windward, what is that about elastic mast(s) for gusts etc

happy to read this good thread, keep it going

 

[bearflag]

since a while i cant reach boatdesign -as only one- anymore on the net
checked blokked sites and tried firefox with same result, with another pc no problem rara?

building a -big- boat is a bit bigger project but nice proa, fine drawings and compliments Inquisitor
as we know the longer the hull the better the seaworthiness, long hull in pro is fine, personally i would consider simpler building method, even hard chine. cant place glare under on the english wheel but for millitairy boats it sure has pottential i would think

dozen other thoughts like having the house to windward, what is that about elastic mast(s) for gusts etc

happy to read this good thread, keep it going

No english wheel required... Should be able to handle all but the most complicated small radius curves. (maybe)

I has a method

Hopefully sometime in the next year I can work on it/prove it. Plan is to build a small model type boat.

 

[Inquisitor]

Z40½ Update

Hi Yipster,
Been a long time since we've crossed paths.

Z40½ Update

Spent most of the week cleaning the basement, knocking out two walls, and wiring about ten more fluorescent lights. Must be getting old... seem to need more light than I used to. Anyway, I don't count destruction, cleaning and lighting toward project time.

I have a grand total of 14 hours.... wooooo! With that, I've cut all the OSB stations for the lee hull.

For this weekend, I hope to...

Cut, bevel and sand the two end stations... since they stay in the boat, I'm obviously using better stuff than OSB.

Laser in the stations and get them mounted to the floor.

Start cutting strips

And lay a few strips down.

Looking forward to it! I'm fired up!

 

[bearflag]

Hi Yipster,
Been a long time since we've crossed paths.

Z40½ Update

Spent most of the week cleaning the basement, knocking out two walls, and wiring about ten more fluorescent lights. Must be getting old... seem to need more light than I used to. Anyway, I don't count destruction, cleaning and lighting toward project time.

I have a grand total of 14 hours.... wooooo! With that, I've cut all the OSB stations for the lee hull.

For this weekend, I hope to...

Cut, bevel and sand the two end stations... since they stay in the boat, I'm obviously using better stuff than OSB.

Laser in the stations and get them mounted to the floor.

Start cutting strips

And lay a few strips down.

Looking forward to it! I'm fired up!

It looks like it goes from your basement, to your neighbor's basement ::thumbsup::

I like the progress.

 

[bearflag]

Any further progress?

*n m*

 

[Inquisitor]

Well....

The progress is painfully slow.

You can see in the previous pictures that I cut the bottom of the hulls (the forms are upside down). If you look closely, you can see where I pre cut the tops also, leaving it attached in small sections. Hark'ns back to building balsa airplane models as a kid. The hope was that I'd have two datums for placing on the floor and up "against" a laser line. It became painfully obvious that my basement floor is not even remotely flat. There seems to be a mountain range running randomly right about where the boat is. Some want to fall east some want to fall west. So much for rationalizations

Cutting strips... well... is now my least favorite thing to do. I've worn out one table saw blade cutting (50) 16' strips. If anyone has any information about the longest lasting blades or anything to make cutting strips easier... please jump right in.

Even though the scantling permits using butt joints and square edges, I'm going to use a 5 degree lap joint on the strips and bevel them for the coutour. Make it a little stronger and use less epoxy grout.

BTW - What is epoxy grout? I get plenty of hits on a search... referring to it... but no definition so far. Is it just epoxy mixed with saw dust or micro balloons or is it something all together different?

Anyway, last night I finished up making three full length lap jointed strips for the keel line and the mid lines on the sides. Not much to show for 17 man hours!

Hopefully, I'll get those attached and final alignment of the stations tonight.

 

[Inquisitor]

Peter principle at work in stip planking...

When building a 60' hull, the required tool is always on the other side of the hull!

 

[bearflag]

Well....

The progress is painfully slow.

You can see in the previous pictures that I cut the bottom of the hulls (the forms are upside down). If you look closely, you can see where I pre cut the tops also, leaving it attached in small sections. Hark'ns back to building balsa airplane models as a kid. The hope was that I'd have two datums for placing on the floor and up "against" a laser line. It became painfully obvious that my basement floor is not even remotely flat. There seems to be a mountain range running randomly right about where the boat is. Some want to fall east some want to fall west. So much for rationalizations

Cutting strips... well... is now my least favorite thing to do. I've worn out one table saw blade cutting (50) 16' strips. If anyone has any information about the longest lasting blades or anything to make cutting strips easier... please jump right in.

Even though the scantling permits using butt joints and square edges, I'm going to use a 5 degree lap joint on the strips and bevel them for the coutour. Make it a little stronger and use less epoxy grout.

BTW - What is epoxy grout? I get plenty of hits on a search... referring to it... but no definition so far. Is it just epoxy mixed with saw dust or micro balloons or is it something all together different?

Anyway, last night I finished up making three full length lap jointed strips for the keel line and the mid lines on the sides. Not much to show for 17 man hours!

Hopefully, I'll get those attached and final alignment of the stations tonight.

I have contemplated this.

Prepping the materials, doens't seem to get much face-time in most boutbuilding books does it?

I think when it comes to be "my time" (if I use any wood strip/core method)

I am going to have a REALLLY long table, sort of kelsall style. For gluing and cutting of wood, making of large frame or plywood bits, etc etc. Except instead of fiberglass, wood, and not cored persay (but maybe for parts)

BUT ANYWAY.....

Instead of a table saw, i think a rail mounted circular saw and router, the length of the table could be an enormous time saver, for bevels, and slicing and dicing strips. Could even have a vacuum on it.

This is a major advantage of plywood construction over strip/cold moulded. Less wood cuts. (other compromises of course) That or make your bits bigger. Also can save a ton of time cutting your wood in array's instead of individual slats. May need a little extra engineering, but may be worth it, depending on the size/scale of the job.

That or just have the lumbermill cut the stuff for you (if you want to pay them)



P.S. I suggest sharpening your own blades. Get the hardest blades you can. Coated blades are fantastic, but the coating only lasts until the first time you sharpen it. One of the more important things you can do when cutting any volume of wood is to keep the blade temperature down. A lot of the blade wear saw blades and routers get is thermal.

 

[Inquisitor]

There was a like message in another thread of mine (get your local saw mill to cut it). I'm looking around here... but being in the original home of Home Depot has some major disadvantages that way. They ran any place like that out of business long ago. I have 3 Home Depot and 2 Lowes centers within five miles of my house. Saw mills... I'm a little short on.

"Saw Mills" have gone beautique. I've found one where he'll bring the mill to your property and cut your trees into hearth mantles, timber framing, paneling, etc. Beautiful stuff. He'll cut it and set it up for drying or can get it kiln dried or whatever. Somewhere on his site it mentions strip planking for boats. Anyway, I'd hazzard a guess its WAY out of my price range for plain ole Fir for strip planking that will be covered with cloth/epoxy and paint.

At the moment, we appear to be playing phone tag.

 

[bearflag]

There was a like message in another thread of mine (get your local saw mill to cut it). I'm looking around here... but being in the original home of Home Depot has some major disadvantages that way. They ran any place like that out of business long ago. I have 3 Home Depot and 2 Lowes centers within five miles of my house. Saw mills... I'm a little short on.

"Saw Mills" have gone beautique. I've found one where he'll bring the mill to your property and cut your trees into hearth mantles, timber framing, paneling, etc. Beautiful stuff. He'll cut it and set it up for drying or can get it kiln dried or whatever. Somewhere on his site it mentions strip planking for boats. Anyway, I'd hazzard a guess its WAY out of my price range for plain ole Fir for strip planking that will be covered with cloth/epoxy and paint.

At the moment, we appear to be playing phone tag.

I like the idea of a boutique small business lumbermill. Its an interesting business niche. Bt yeah, I am skeptical of the pricing, you never know, having the equipment, skill, etc for doing it and being able to do it at your site may save you money in the long run. It really depends.

If the guy is just a hardworker with a table saw he will save you a ton of time, but not much money. If he has something with multiple saw blades and a method of feeding exceptionally long planks and turns the blade slower or cools the blades, then yeah. ~Could be cheaper and faster.

That, or yeah, find a local lumber mill.

 

[bearflag]

Sawmills and mini-mills

Sawmills near you.
http://atlanta-ga.yellowusa.com/Sawmills.html

Mini-mills (none listed near you, but you should check the woodworking forums)
http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=29313

 

[Inquisitor]

Yeah, the first seven hits are the Georgia Pacific. They don't take orders under... about... a million cubic feet. They wouldn't bother to pick the phone up for me.

#8 at 40 miles away... I've bought quiet a bit of cedar for my house with Anderson before, but they use to be a little too rough hewn for the boat strips... but I've got a call into them to see.