Submarine Yacht project

[wellmer]

Concrete Submarine Yacht

Visit www.psubs.org - the web/blog site for self-built submersibles. They have books, articles, plans for sale, photos, reader's projects etc. Everything.

Hi I have published some photos of my submarine www.tolimared.com/submarine in psubs.org moki files - There is also a discussion about concrete submarine yachts on this forum from a year ago...

Regards,
Wilfried

Concrete submarine yacht - hull without ballast and tower

Concrete submarine yacht - hull with ballast machinery and tower

Concrete submarine yacht - inside nice and dry no filtering no condensation

 

[wellmer]

Interesting project, Wil. But it's going to be no easy task.
Have you compared costs against an all steel one?
Cheers,

Hello Guillermo,

I already built the concrete submarine yacht, dived and tested it for a decade, - it was quite easy. See [www.tolimared.com/submarine] for photos. There are also photos published in boatdesign.net - gallery.

Most complicated part is the concrete forming for a blimp shape, but i came up with a tecnique that allowed casting with a moving forming process similar to the one used in Torontos TV tower.

What concerns cost against steel only the sandblasting of a steel hull would be more expensive than the complete concrete submarine hull.

Regards,
W.Ellmer

 

[RatliffFranklin]

Construction

Hello Guillermo,

I already built the concrete submarine yacht, dived and tested it for a decade, - it was quite easy. See [www.tolimared.com/submarine] for photos. There are also photos published in boatdesign.net - gallery.

Most complicated part is the concrete forming for a blimp shape, but i came up with a tecnique that allowed casting with a moving forming process similar to the one used in Torontos TV tower.

What concerns cost against steel only the sandblasting of a steel hull would be more expensive than the complete concrete submarine hull.

Regards,
W.Ellmer

Although perhaps at some sacrifice to internal volume, could not the construction process be simplified by going to a cylindrical shape?

 

[wellmer]

Hello Franklin,

Of course you could also make a cylinder shape, maybe forming is a little easier - not much if you have a proper technique.

Anyhow the fine thing of a blimp shape is that you get a deep belly where you can store your sand ballast on a very deep point this gives your submarine a high stability in static dives. So it will not stand up like a bottle if you move from front seat to engine room during dive.

You also get 2m standing height - this is something important for comfort in your submarine on longer turns.

A cylinder of 2,4m diameter with end cups would be a hull very hard to move around.

The blimp shape gives you performance and range like a normal motor yacht.

Kindest Regards
Wilfried

 

[longliner45]

welmer I agree with you there,I believe Thomas Edison added bamboo to concrete to beef it up ,,first,also have you ever tried to sqeeze a raw egg,to burst it ? please keep us posted ,,very interesting project,think of all the salvage in shallow water!good luck,,,, longliner

 

[Poida]

So cool, you wouldn't have to guess if there were any fish there.
When you see them you just open a window and stick your fishing rod out.

 

[joe_cope]

What kind of concrete did you use? If I'm not mistaken ordinary cement is slightly porous and would allow water to seep in (and air to seep out) so you'd want to use a waterproof cement, right? Also, regular cement shrinks when it cures, right? so did you have any issues with shrinkage or cracking in the hull during the curing process?

have you ever tried to sqeeze a raw egg,to burst it ?

I've done that. I've crushed a raw egg by squeezing it along it's short axis, but not the long axis. Still took a hard squeeze though.

What about using some kind of fiber-reinforced plastic to increase flexability, reduce the chance of cracks, and to reduce weight? I'm remembering some kid's toys back in my hometown that were made out of recycled milk jugs. You could use some kind of plastic and glass or carbon fiber and build it up in layers (paint it on layer by layer)...

 

[wellmer]

concrete submarine hull watertight

The idea that concrete is a kind of sponge where water and air passes trough is not realistic - concrete made correctly does not allow pass of water at all. You see many structures without any coating that resist water under pressure. without any additional measures. (tunnels, dams, bridge fundamentations) - anyhow if you are concerned about this have a coating on your submarine - i recommend a tarmac based one as i had on my testproject [www.tolimared.com/submarine] i also was rather neurotic about what would happen when the coating would be compromised - until i noticed that the coating had been compromised in an area of 10x10 cm and i had not noticed it - no wet spot inside no filtering under pressure - just nothing. Today after having seen this in practice i would say coating is fine for estetical reasons - not necessary for tecnical ones. - If you have a imagine of a concrete submarine hull as a wet, filtering place just look at the poto in the photogallery - the hull was not only without any filtering it also was without condensation - the bilge stayed nice and dry under hot sun, and under ice cover - thing i had not expected in first place.

 

[wellmer]

concrete submarine yacht, make it flexible, shrinking, cracks

What kind of concrete did you use? If I'm not mistaken ordinary cement is slightly porous and would allow water to seep in (and air to seep out) so you'd want to use a waterproof cement, right? Also, regular cement shrinks when it cures, right? so did you have any issues with shrinkage or cracking in the hull during the curing process?


I've done that. I've crushed a raw egg by squeezing it along it's short axis, but not the long axis. Still took a hard squeeze though.

What about using some kind of fiber-reinforced plastic to increase flexability, reduce the chance of cracks, and to reduce weight? I'm remembering some kid's toys back in my hometown that were made out of recycled milk jugs. You could use some kind of plastic and glass or carbon fiber and build it up in layers (paint it on layer by layer)...

from wellmer

The point is any intent of making concrete "better" is dangerous as you go away from what is proven state of art of concrete construction.

There is also no need to make it "better" as normal concrete has all properties required for a submarine hull.

I do not recommend any additives on contrary this is a way to make things more complicated to handle and increase the probability of failure. Concrete bible says that you should only use that kind of things if you have a concrete lab available - if you have no lab - stay at normal cement - in normal conditions - it is the only way to get a good result with predictable strenght.

The egg shell is a good experiment - especially if you compare it with a beer can - if you bring both to depth you will find that egg is better for diving. This is because it maintains form until it breaks.

Adding flexibility does no good as concrete has a reasonable flexibility anyhow
and changing form under pressure (flexible) is a problem - not a advantage.

In a submarine you want a solid pressure resistant wall no layers at all - layers mean changes in force flow that are impossible to calculate and predict.

Cracks are part of concrete construcction as rust is part of steel construction. Other than in glass a crack in concrete does not weaken the ability of the material to take forces - basicly for compression forces it does not matter and tension forces are not taken by the concrete - they are taken by the steelbars.

wellmer
[www.tolimared.com/submarine]

 

[joe_cope]

Cracks are part of concrete construcction as rust is part of steel construction. Other than in glass a crack in concrete does not weaken the ability of the material to take forces - basicly for compression forces it does not matter and tension forces are not taken by the concrete - they are taken by the steelbars.

How do the cracks in the concrete affect the watertight integrity of the hull under pressure?

And what about shrinkage? I know that there is "non-shrink" grout for things like swimming pools. Would shrinkage while curing be a problem for larger subs or thicker hulls?

 

[wellmer]

concrete submarine hull shrinking cracks

Hello Joe,

The kind of cracks you get in concrete by shrinking under normal conditions do not go trough the structure and are very small. The problem engineers worry most about is that water can reach the steelbars and produce rusting and therefore weakening on long term - therefore there is a normative that says that you should maintain a concrete cover of at least 2cm over the bars to enable them to take the full force and to avoid filtering water down to the bars. So stay within that normative and back it up with an aditional bitumen cover of 1mm - you will be at the save side and have no problems with your concrete submarine hull - no filtering.

In worst case you have a filtering it tends to stop under pressure as spaces reduce under compression. Trieste had a 11.000 m dive with a filtering on surface

Again i know the idea of cracks is a little scaring especialy if you have submarine films in mind where glass and acylic cracks just before failure.

You will get piece of mind if you talk with a construction engineer about this - and his state of mind when cracks appear in the colums of a building that take thousands of tons of force ...

They do not worry about cracks that appear during curing of concrete the only kind of cracks they worry about is the kind that appears years after the construction and bring up colors of rusting bars and other sign of problems and filtering in concrete due to bad execution of basic concrete rules.

Shrinkage is no big issue in normal construcction. If you have walls of dozends of meters as in dam construction you get a problem because concrete produces heat while curing and must not reach more than 30degrees Celsius during cure process.

Again, stick to the proven you will get a good result - no reason to see ghosts of cracks, shrinking, filtering everywhere - If you ever have seen a concrete hull in parctice you will trust it as you trust bridges, tunnels, and colums in everyday life.

You ever thought about the fact that the building above you is hold in its place only by a concrete column full of cracks due to curing process - a scaring idea - similar scaring as the idea of a watercolumn of hundreds of meters above your submarine.

This is the same thing as first glassfiber hulls came up - people said: oh you would cross the ocean in a fragile boat of glass? or even worse in one made out of coal? - if you ever have seen and touched a real hull and get a idea of its real strengh - all those ghosts simply disappear.


Kindest Regards,
W.Ellmer

 

[kach22i]

While everyone seems to of focused on the material, I'd like to say something about the form.

1. It should have a flat top or deck so that one could choose the fresh air and sunshine.

2. It should be shinny and pretty with a good deal of thought gone into it's Industrial design.

Other wild options may include special themes or novelty.

http://www.buckeyestateblog.com/node/1802

http://www.otwdesigns.com/Type7/type7.htm

I don't mean to mock your industrious ideas, just looking at it from a different vantage point - it's gotta sell.

Maybe add a sail?

 

[wellmer]

submarine yacht ocean passages wind energy

Hello kach22i,
I apreciate your contribution - finally - a yacht must sell. I also thought a lot about a kind of deck - in first place to have a place for a fine anchor solution with winch and chain storage. - in second place to have cells for blowing them out with air in emergency. This is not so important for a small sub like my submarine yacht [www.tolimared.com/submarine]

But very important for a bigger ship where an anchor winch is a must and drop weights are not a viable security solution. - Also deckspace would be big enough to give it a real use.

Kindest Regards,
W.Ellmer

 

[kach22i]

Also deckspace would be big enough to give it a real use.r

Now you are talking, room for a bikini boat party............why else own a yacht?

EDIT: Found This..................................big deck.

http://www.sub-find.com/deepstar.htm

http://www.submarine.co.mp/

http://www.balicruises.com/sea/submarine/index.html

I see nothing wrong with other themes, just posting samples.

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/customers/exomos/nautilus/nautilus.htm

Nautilus is Exomos' version of the submarine in Jules Verne's 20,000 leagues and is intended to be used by tourist resorts to give visitors a unique view of the local marine environment. It seats seven, with the option to add 2 jump seats. The anticipated final weight in water is eight tons, 15.5 meters long, 2.5 meters in diameter. Nautilus is Powered by our OSSA Powerlite a 500vdc version of our OSSA Powerlite 35hp motor. The motor turns a 26" x 13" pitch, 5-bladed propeller. Power is provided by a state-of-the-art 512v lithium-ion battery pack which is recharged at dockside.

http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/TESTING THE NAUTILUS MINISUB.htm

http://gohawaii.about.com/library/gallery/blgallery428.htm

 

[wellmer]

submarine yacht, tourist submarine, differences

Hello kach22i,

The submarines you show in the pictures are all variations of one segment the tourist submarine.

Those boats are built to load a big quantity of tourists in on a protected pier and bring them out maybe half a mile to a protected divesite in a 30 minute dive.

Once in nobody is allowed to leave seat until dive ends.

They look like a submarine tourist bus - because they are constructed to be one.

They are not yachts in the sense of yachting going for a longer trip, live aboard, etc...

Acrylic viewports of that size take a maximum of 10000 dive cycles and then have to be replaced at prohibitive cost.

A tourist sub similar as an airplane has to be certifiacted for passenger transport. So this is a segment completly apart from yachting.

In a private yacht you can do and use what you consider - in public transport not.

You will never get a certification for a concrete hull as there are no normative rules for certification.

So the sector of tourist sub will be the LAST segment where you will see a concrete submarine. - This is why my design was NOT meant for it.

The design was made to perform as low cost low maintainance yacht being parked on a mooring in a field of sailing and motor yachts, and perform for weekend trips in a yachtintg environment.

I found out that my submarine yacht had even lower maintainance cost than the sourrounding sailing and motor yachts so given the restrictions to tourist submarines i believe that this is the segment where concrete submarines might have a future.

Kindest Regards,
W.Ellmer