Notable open & development class racers....

[Paul B]

But Peligroso and the other ULDB 70s ARE downwind oriented boats... If Pelegroso's hull shape innovation is relevant to Transpac 52s and Grand Prix 42s, then it seems to me it's relevant to this discussion. And do we know it's not relevant for the open classes as well? Whatever it is, though, it's not apparent from the sections in the published drawing, is it?

I know Tim has posted here in the past andmaybe he will again. If you see Peligroso it looks like a normal modern boat. I think the step Tim is talking about is a performance step, not a physical step in the hull you seem to be thinking.

Peli is just fine upwind as well as down. She is simply a modern take on the old ULDB 70s, which were IOR limited. Peli is not and is about 30 sec/mile faster than a well sailed "Turbo" Sled from the 1980s in a bouy race. She is a much more powerful looking shape, at about the same length and weight as the old sleds.

There isn't much out here for her to race against around the cans. We were sailing a little 48 footer against her in some of the bigger regattas this year, and for the most part it was boats 48 to 52 feet, with one or two old sleds and Peli. She looks nice, but who knows how she will fare against the new STP65s coming soon.

 

[Stephen Ditmore]

Vega:
I'm afraid I'm hopeless with languages other than English (the only other I've ever learned at all is Gujarati). Please be so kind as to help me out here.

• I take it the key idea on Defline's performance boats is dual canting keels?
• Does he have any designs competing in an open or development class?
• I take it he worked for Briand and then for Barret before going on his own?

Paul B:
So what do you think Tim is referring to when he says:

The hull is different, and there were people who saw it in the shop and said, 'I don't think it will work'.​

........???

 

[Paul B]

Paul B:
So what do you think Tim is referring to when he says:

The hull is different, and there were people who saw it in the shop and said, 'I don't think it will work'.​

........???

I have an opinion, but it would probably be better if you just e-mailed Tim and asked. He seems like a real straight shooter when it comes to answering questions, moreso than many other design offices.

 

[Vega]

Vega:
I'm afraid I'm hopeless with languages other than English (the only other I've ever learned at all is Gujarati). Please be so kind as to help me out here.

• I take it the key idea on Defline's performance boats is dual canting keels?
• Does he have any designs competing in an open or development class?
• I take it he worked for Briand and then for Barret before going on his own

• 
  
  Sorry about the delay.
  
  
  Defline had worked with Philippe Briand as project manager (the one that is in charge of a project). He had participated in the design of several boats for Jeanneau and Dufour, several racing boats, between them the Suisse Class America. He had participated also in the design of several Mega-Yachts.
  
  Before he established himself, he had worked also with Berret-Racoupeau Yacht Design, as manager of the racing projects. He worked particularly in the development of the 50ft Open “Savings”, a winner of many races.
  
  He has several racing boat projects but I believe that their boats don’t fit in the existing rules.
  
  There are a lot of new ideas, but I think that the two main ones are the System 2qp (double canting keel) and the Der, a system of retractile twin keels, for cruiser boats.
  
  You can have the explanations regarding the 2QP in English:
  
  http://www.defline.com/architecte-naval/R&D/r&d_systeme_2qp-english.htm
  
  The other systems and innovations are only in French. If you are interested in any of them, and if the images are not enough, tell me, I will try to help.
  
  Regards

 

[Stephen Ditmore]

Thank you very much, Vega. My primary interest continues to be in interesting designs and proven winners in open and development classes, and what distinguishes them from their competitors. Are those 40s you mentioned in the Velux 5 Oceans thread in the water racing yet?

 

[DGreenwood]

Thank you very much, Vega. My primary interest continues to be in interesting designs and proven winners in open and development classes, and what distinguishes them from their competitors. Are those 40s you mentioned in the Velux 5 Oceans thread in the water racing yet?

About six hours before you posted this the last Class 40 (the 23rd) finished the Route du Rhum in Pointe-a-Pitre, Guadalupe. Proving to be a very successful class with the leader coming in only about 12 hours behind Artforms, the winning Open 50. An impressive show.
The winner, Phil Sharp, has sailed himself into a great position for sponsor attention for further racing endeavors.
Take some time look this site over: http://www.routedurhum-labanquepostale.com/en/s01_home/s01p01_home.php

And this one:
http://www.class40racing.com/index2.html

 

[Vega]

About six hours before you posted this the last Class 40 (the 23rd) finished the Route du Rhum in Pointe-a-Pitre, Guadalupe. Proving to be a very successful class with the leader coming in only about 12 hours behind Artforms, the winning Open 50. An impressive show.
The winner, Phil Sharp, has sailed himself into a great position for sponsor attention for further racing endeavors.

You are right.
Perhaps you didn't notice that there is thread in this forum about those boats and their performance in that race?
The thread was posted at the beginning of the race

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14468

 

[Vega]

My primary interest continues to be in interesting designs and proven winners in open and development classes, and what distinguishes them from their competitors. Are those 40s you mentioned in the Velux 5 Oceans thread in the water racing yet?

It was not on the "Velux 5 Oceans race", but on "The Route du rhum".

The Veloux 5 Oceans race is the ex- Boc Challenge, ex-Around alone and is now called like that.

That race has been losing importance. The 1990 edition had 25 boats, the 2002 edition 13 and this year edition 6. This year edition was open only to 50 and 60 open boats. It is a race around the world alone with scales.

"La route du Rhum", contrary to the Velux, is gaining importance. Each new edition has more racing boats. This year edition had 86 inscriptions, and the race is open to all categories including the 40class (25 boats). It is a solo transatlantic race that beguines in St. Malo and Finishes at Guadalupe.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14412
http://www.routedurhum-labanquepostale.com/fr/s01_home/s01p01_home.php
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14468

I am interested in racing boats, but even more interested in the influence that those boats have in fast cruising boats and as you, I am mainly interested in hull shapes.

That influence is very different in Europe and in USA, and fast cruiser-racer hulls are very different in the US and the Europe, and I am talking of big production relatively inexpensive boats, the ones that everybody can buy.

Take a look at the Pogo fast cruiser- racer (the cruising brother of the winner of the class 40) and at the J-120. Both are fast boats, but completely different boats. In an open ocean race who would be the fastest? What are the good points and bad points of each kind of hull?
I really would like to have a go at it, and this is not an US versus Europe debate, because there are some (fewer) boats in Europe that follow the American trend and I have to say that I like them a lot.

http://www.pogostructures.com/files/Pogo_15-9-2006_16:43:58.pdf
http://www.finot.com/bateaux/batproduction/structures/pogo12/pogo40_ang.htm
http://www.pogostructures.com/?m=4&s=1&l=en

http://www.jboats.com/j120/
http://www.j120.org/

 

[CT 249]

"I am interested in racing boats, but even more interested in the influence that those boats have in fast cruising boats and as you, I am mainly interested in hull shapes.
That influence is very different in Europe and in USA, and fast cruiser-racer hulls are very different in the US and the Europe, and I am talking of big production relatively inexpensive boats, the ones that everybody can buy."

Whenever I've asked designers who have done Open and "conventional" boats which one is better, they've said that the Open style is better for the reaching-oriented long ocean races, and the "conventional" style is better for coastal races and short races.

Seems to me many things about the Open style aren't all that much good for harbour/coastal racing (I don't want water ballast, multiple forestays and multiple rudders in those situations) but they'd be great in an ocean crossing. The only time I sailed an Open 60 inshore it was great fun, but that owner spent a lot of time and money making it into a coastal/inshore boat, and even then it wasn't really at home in that situation.

 

[Crag Cay]

The 40ft class is not really 'open'. There were several Open 40's built that shared many of the same characteristics as their bigger (and smaller 6.5m) brothers, including high cost.

But these 40ft class boats are very different and have had a more 'all round mandate' in their design. I think the comparison with the J Class philosophy is valid.

I often hear it quoted that the Open Class yachts are optimised soley for downwind sailing. I think this may have been true in the early days, but the race program for these boats is now so varied, that the VPP is developed for far more upwind sailing than used to be considered. Whilst down wind in the southern ocean can be where these races are lost (eg Adrian Thomson), getting to and from these latitues is often where it is won.

 

[DGreenwood]

Thanks Vega
I guess I had not seen that thread or I had avoided it for fear it was becoming mired in another battle between the "good old days" guys and the development crowd.
CT 249
The open class boats are not cruising boats except in a most rudimentary way. As a platform to develop hull form, rig efficiency, foil efficiency, leaner structures, and testing the reliability of equipment and electronics, they are fantastic. In a single around the world race they see far more abuse and mileage than most well used cruising boats get in 20 years. Operating these machines at stress levels and duty cycles that are well beyond what is expected of the typical weekender or cruiser has trickled down new technologies to that industry in a big way. Albiet not in an immediately obvious way and not always in a successful way.

CC
The new O 60s are definitely paying a lot more attention to those upwind parts of the trip around the world. Much of the secretive stuff going on inside the new PRB and Delta Dore is to do with water ballasting techniques to (among other things) get them upwind much faster.Ballast tank shape, size, and placement are the development opportunity of this coming BWR and Vendee.
Rigs are still a wild card as well. There are still so many options with no real obvious "winning method" having developed.
Unfortunately we did not get to see DDs or PRBs performance in the R du R. Once these boats are sorted and have some miles it will be interesting to see if the sailors are able to control them effectively.

 

[Stephen Ditmore]

The 40ft class is not really 'open'. There were several Open 40's built that shared many of the same characteristics as their bigger (and smaller 6.5m) brothers, including high cost.

But these 40ft class boats are very different and have had a more 'all round mandate' in their design. I think the comparison with the J Class philosophy is valid.

I often hear it quoted that the Open Class yachts are optimised soley for downwind sailing. I think this may have been true in the early days, but the race program for these boats is now so varied, that the VPP is developed for far more upwind sailing than used to be considered. Whilst down wind in the southern ocean can be where these races are lost (eg Adrian Thomson), getting to and from these latitues is often where it is won.

I found this, from one of the sites recommended by Vega, helpful in explaining the difference:

Class 40 should not be confused with Open 40, which is an unrestricted race boat type that allows for instance the use of canting keels and carbon fibre in hull and deck structure. At least initially it might be that Class 40 and Open 40 will co-exist in some events but few Open 40’s will be able to qualify and race in the same class as a Class 40. In time it is felt that Class 40 will become in the same way as the Mini Transat, by far the dominant offshore short-handed racing class in its length.​

So I take it we have 3 different development classes at around 40ft: Open 40, Class 40, and Grand Prix 42. Are they competing with each other for competitors and dollars? Can all three thrive, or ought one die so the other two can live?

I see now that the key to getting the information I want at www.routedurhum-labanquepostale.com is to click on the class, then the boat name, then on "Le bateau du skipper". Thus I've discovered that Phil Sharp's boat is a Finot/Conq. Does that mean it's a Pogo?

First and second in the IMOCA class went to Lombard designs. Would anyone want to try compare & contrast the latest thinking of Lombard vs Finot?

 

[DGreenwood]

The Class 40 has the attention of the media and the sailors hands down. There were 28 of them slated to run in the R du R. Only 25 made it and 23 finished. Unprecidented for a class that has only been around for a couple years.
Phil Sharp boat is a Pogo.

 

[Stephen Ditmore]

Here's the web site of the ORC GP42 class: http://www.orc.org/index.php?id=161

I suppose the main difference is that the Class 40s are raced single or doublehanded, while the GP42s will generally be raced with a full crew. Given that difference, is there any meaningful way to draw a comparison?

Where can you be found, Mr. Greenwood? Perhaps we should do lunch on City Island.

On another subject, imagine the IMOCA boats and related classes didn't require fixed ballast and didn't have the 10 degree rule limiting water ballast. Now imagine they're 1/5 the size, with restricted sail areas. What you'd have is a Moth, the smallest (and most affordable) singlehanded development class. Here in the U.S. we have "Modern" and "Classic" Moths.

Here's a quick report on the Classic Moth class: The Duflos design from 1963, http://perso.orange.fr/louis.pillon/moth/images/duflos.html, has morphed into a version developable from plywood, the Mistral. Recently a wider transom resembling that of a Europe has been integrated with the Mistral hull, giving rise to Mousetrap, current U.S. National Champion (photo).

Moths in the U.S.:
www.mothboat.com

Classic Moths in France & U.K.:
http://perso.orange.fr/louis.pillon/moth/
http://www.britishmoth.co.uk/

International Moth:
http://moth.iointegration.com/LinksSP.htm

 

[Vega]

So I take it we have 3 different development classes at around 40ft: Open 40, Class 40, and Grand Prix 42. Are they competing with each other for competitors and dollars? Can all three thrive, or ought one die so the other two can live?

Phil Sharp's boat is a Finot/Conq. Does that mean it's a Pogo?

Stephen, If you take a look at the thread about the 40class, you are going to see that you have a lot of information there. Yes it is a Pogo, as DGreenwood had already said, and as it is said in that thread. There you have links for the Pogo builder and other builders of 40class production boats. You can see the differences between the cruising and racing versions.

The main difference between this 40class and to the others is PRICE. These boats cost probably 3 or 4 times less than the boats from the other classes and have impressive performances.

Besides this is a boat that you can use for racing, but also for cruising. Of course, top racers will not use the boat this way, but this will permit an amateur to cruise and to ocean race competitively in the same boat.

When they say that this boat is going to be the next mini-transat,it is because everybody that really wants to ocean race is going to manage to race one, because it's inexpensive.
These boats are going to be raced in huge numbers, like the minis 6.5 and likewise they are going to discover and give opportunity to a lot of young talents.

What makes them different from the minis is that these ones are so fast that they are going to shame a lot of other racers, with bigger and much more expensive sail boats.

By the way, Phil Sharp, an Englishman in a middle of a lot of French, is young, was not among the favorites and has come from the Minis-6.5.

Take a look at his speed on a 6.5:

http://www.philsharpracing.com/video.php