yes, it is a Revolution

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by TANSL, Jan 31, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,490
    Likes: 152, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,246
    Likes: 264, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    The progress of the revolution has accelerated greatly since about 2010-11. Now, more than ever before, foiling and/or foil assist has permeated almost every type of sailing-from boards to 100'+ multihulls and monohulls. From dinghies to IMOCA ocean racers. Manufacturers are designing boats capable of foiling in very light air as well as beginning to produce foilers that emphasize ease of handling and comfort rather than the early emphasis on speed and athleticism. It's an exciting time for sailboat design and development. You ain't seen nothin yet!
     
  3. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,490
    Likes: 152, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    (nothing) It would be a very kind gesture on your part if you would tell us something of what you have seen.
    According to experts in these designs, the real revolution is not the foils, which existed many years ago and whose sections have not changed almost, but the application of new materials, composites, which have greatly reduced the weight, not only the hulls, but the masts and rigging, as well as all the equipment on the ship. This, in addition, has allowed to lower the height of the ship's center of gravity. According to these designers, from what I have understood, the revolution is made up of materials, which are what have made these "boats" fly. The foils, in themselves, no longer astonish anyone.
     
  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,246
    Likes: 264, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ------------------------------
    Thats probably a shortsighted view. The AC75 foils are sure to astonish a few people. The new doublesided rigs may astonish others. The actual sailing of these new AC boats is bound to astonish many people.
    But the AC is only a small part of the Foiling Revolution. The design and application of foils to a wide variety of boats with hugely varying purposes is where a lot of revolutionary news will originate-like the 29' DSS foil on a cruising boat. And the incredible ability of the new trimaran foiling system to fly extremely fast in waves-so fast that even the engineers (and some of the rest of us) were surprised. So surprised that now the boats will have to be re-engineered for the capability of the foils rather than the foils engineered for the capability of the boats and that is an astonishing development!
    People not "astonished" by the new types of foils (and foil configurations) may be missing something.......
    PS-I think developments in materials science are helping every aspect of modern boat building and design.

    ---29' DSS Foil on 142 Baltic cruiser:
    DSS Baltic 142 29'.jpg

    ---Revolutionary foil design on Charal:
    CharalDefiAzimut2018byYvanZedda_52.jpg

    ---Revolutionary main and ama foil design(and foil configuration) on Gitana 17-never before seen on a 100' trimaran designed from scratch:
    1) Ama foil:

    gitana-17-vue-arric3a8re-photo-2-f-monsonnec-04-04-17 - Copy.jpg

    2) Main foil:
    Gitana 17 main foil.jpg

    ---Revolutionary American Magic Monofoiler for NZAC 36:
    American Magic Mule-Pensacola.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  5. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,490
    Likes: 152, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    AC75 can probably surprise many people, their foils do not. For many photos that you show me, in a certain sense we are always seeing the same thing. Frankly, I do not see a revolution in the foils. But I am afraid that this discussion does not have any future.
    I am amazed by the number of revolutionary elements, technical, mechanical, electrical, related to materials and personnel, that have had to be combined so that a man, alone, may be able to navigate on a ship of this size, full speed in the conditions shown in the video of my first post. Compared to that, foils are nothing.
     
  6. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,246
    Likes: 264, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===============================
    I'm afraid I disagree.
     
  7. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,490
    Likes: 152, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    Don't be afraid, please, you are free to agree or give your opinion on what you like most. But the aim of this thread was to show my admiration for the enormous amount of things that have had to improve, the amount of studies that have had to be done, the amount of practical work invested in a large number of different areas, to have the sailing boats that we have today. THAT, for me, is a revolution, the foils, frankly, they are great but they are not a revolution. They were, perhaps (I would not affirm it either), in 1960.
     
  8. OzFred
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 422
    Likes: 38, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Earth

    OzFred Senior Member

    The accessibility of foiling has been improved greatly by advancements in materials and design, which have increased performance and reduced costs. However it continues to represent a tiny fraction of sailing in general, and is almost exclusive to racing boats.

    Foilers continue to be very much more expensive than an equivalent non–foiler, harder to sail (as foilers), easier to break and more expensive to maintain and fix. Those issues don't daunt the people who sail them, but it's a serious barrier to wider adoption.

    The AC75 is just the latest example of a truely remarkable boat that is as relevant to an average sailor as an F1 race car is to an Uber driver. I can't think of a single new feature that makes sense on a weekend cruiser or even club racer. Articulated foils that act as keels and require batteries and computers to control? Boats that the very best sailors in the world struggle to sail at all, much less well?

    Recent developments aren't a revolution. They're a continuation of a steady evolution of hydrofoil technology with forks down interesting but likely dead–end paths. However, technologies are often successfully applied in ways that we'd never imagined, so it may well be that all the R & D is not a complete waste, we just haven't found a compelling application yet.

    In the meantime, I'll marvel at the spectacle and hope for plenty of future entertainment. I just don't expect it to change the world or even sailing in any significant way. :)
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,246
    Likes: 264, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    It's already changed sailing in a significant way!! New boats are being designed to takeoff in light air, to be easy to foil and they are just the beginning of a revolutionary change in the way foiling is presented to the public. It's a wave of change that can only be described as revolutionary when foiling has permeated every facet of sailing from the smallest to the largest boats, monohulls ,catamarans ,trimarans, windsurfers, kitesurfers, ocean racers and even some cruisers with foil assist.
     
  10. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 2,791
    Likes: 270, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Just for info TANSL, you speak your nonsense only for yourself, and not for everyone as you stated here.

    To think and express you speak for everyone is just another example of your conceited but alas unjustified complacency.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
    Doug Lord likes this.
  11. trip the light fandango
    Joined: Apr 2018
    Posts: 161
    Likes: 25, Points: 18
    Location: Rhyll Phillip Island Victoria Australia

    trip the light fandango Senior Member

    I check the multi hull section pretty much daily and it is Doug that is the most enthralled with foiling , well with english as his first language. His passion and dedication are something to behold, being an Aussie there is a fair few lines that could be added next,.. but really where is the harm in frothing and enjoying the rush? , let him be Doug. In some ways he is very modern in the way he flags this innovation as partly his, it is, he makes succesful models and loves it, go sick bloke[translation,.. it is his perogative]. TANSL is from a different ilk, [refreshing for a yank,.. sorry]. Doug if you can work out a cheap and effective way of not writing off the craft if it hits a piece of kelp I'm all ears , that boat going up the amazon the other day was gobsmackingly amazing, just the 10 knot current and apparent wind, wow. Is that really real. ? Anyway getting back to not risking your boat and life, I suppose the key is to build in a shear point in the foil so you don't disable the craft and lose it and drown,..require assistance... I should add my experience and knowledge pales pretty much into insignificance compared to you folk but I read lots and are keen to learn, regards,. fire away.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  12. OzFred
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 422
    Likes: 38, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Earth

    OzFred Senior Member

    The same boat without hydrofoils (obviously). About the only foiler that is arguably easier to sail than its non–foiling counterpart is a Moth, which was diabolical to sail and really couldn't get much more difficult. At least lifting foils increased the reward, even if the difficulty was only marginally reduced.

    Surely you can't be serious… batteries in boats is a "fantastic development"? The necessity for computer control, even with the best sailors in the world as crew, is a "fantastic development"?
    It's led to a boat that can't sail, and likely can't even stay upright, in any sort of breeze if it's stored energy source runs out or is crewed by less than world champion sailors. That's anything but a "fantastic development" unless your criteria include extreme exclusivity.
    On the contrary, they were steady refinements of existing ideas, particularly "uptip" foils that were a progression from C foils that led to L , J and Z foils. Development continues with various shapes. People in various parts of the world had tinkered with T foils on Moths, it's just that some guys in Perth got it to work well enough first.


    Ladder foils were a dead end, "uptip" foils on cruising cats are a dead end. I think Z foils are a dead end, surviving only because of rules in certain classes. I suspect the AC75 canting arms with foils are a dead end too, those last two assertions will take a few years to prove of course.

    It has changed a few racing boats, but its adoption is extremely limited in the overall scheme of things. Many classes have specifically banned foils, classes like i14 allow rudder foils but ban anything that might allow full foiling. The number of cruising boats capable of full foiling in the world can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. Those with foil assist are more numerous, but still there are very few. And before you start, the Quant 23 is not a cruising boat.

    Get out to an actual sailing regatta and you'll see very few foilers. Talk to actual sailors and while they're interested in the novelty of foiling, they have zero interest in sailing one other than as something on their bucket list if the opportunity arises.
     
  13. OzFred
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 422
    Likes: 38, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Earth

    OzFred Senior Member

    I guess you're referring to the Artemis video, which seems like an April Fools' joke released a couple of months early. The boat wasn't in the Amazon, nor was it actually doing anything claimed in the video. The notion that a sailing boat can go 3 times windspeed directly down wind is the equivalent of a perpetual motion machine.
     
  14. trip the light fandango
    Joined: Apr 2018
    Posts: 161
    Likes: 25, Points: 18
    Location: Rhyll Phillip Island Victoria Australia

    trip the light fandango Senior Member

    Thanks, yes that did my head in, but it's pertinent to the topic , it must have been Doug using irony which I didn't get.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019

  15. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,490
    Likes: 152, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    Everyone can think what they want but I wonder if a sailing boat that does not sail but flies, some sails that are not sails but airplane wings, a crew that is largely not made up of sailors but by cyclists, a skipper who does not marks the direction towards where his experience says but towards where the computer says, ... can be qualified that of boat of sail boat ?. Still declaring my admiration for these devices (foilers), I also wonder about the advances, which are many, in the most traditional racing boats, and that, to me, I wonder and I like it much more. I do not despise the foilers, I only question those who point to fashions as if that were the future ... fashions, we all know, are the present, never the future.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.