Would this make a good coastal cruiser?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by boat fan, Sep 15, 2008.

  1. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member

    Hello all.

    I`m a Newbe , but have been lurking for some time.

    I would like to know if anyone has any knowledge / experience with vessels known in asia as BANKAS ?


    mysteries.gif

    It would seem an easy / quick build using ply over frames.

    Bare bones no frills spartan fitout with modest junk or lug rig.

    Does anyone know what the overall breadth / length ratio would be for such a craft ?

    Could this make a good coastal cruiser in tropics ?
     
  2. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Why not a standard cat or tri (better resale if by a known & respected designer & builder) - - Unless one is looking for a suitable vessel for a "Vikings funeral" (by that I mean no desire to die or be buried on land but still a "reasonable sea going boat) - you will note I did not say "Ocean passage-meking vessel" :D:D:D
     
  3. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member

    Funerals not part of the plan.:p

    Seems to me this could be a lot cheaper to build than a cat or tri.
    Resale value is not an issue as this would be my last boat anyway.
     
  4. tom28571
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    It is a tri, just not a very good one. Before going this route, it makes loads of sense to go try this tri. It may be a breakthrough, but I doubt it.

    What it really looks like is someone who is afraid of heeling. If it has much sail area and gets in strong wind it is going to heel anyway. That ama and beam affair will be a real drag. Pacific islanders use that arrangement but they don't have central hulls like that and sail them in ways to compensate for lack of flotation in the amas.
     
  5. kengrome
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    kengrome Senior Member

    That's a Philippine banca, and yes I have some knowledge and experience with them ... :)

    Correct. That's the way the local builders construct them.

    Sorry, not on one of these boats. They are mostly designed for inboard propulsion, not sails. You'll need a better design if you want to carry anything more than a small downwind sail on one of these boats.

    Usually the range is from 1:2 to 2:3.

    Absolutely -- but I wouldn't try to sail one if I were you.

    Just realize that these boats are not great in bad conditions. Fortunately they can be dragged up high onto the beach and tied to some trees if there's no protected bays or coves nearby when the weather gets really bad -- such as during a typhoon for example.

    Where would you be using such a boat?

    The one in your picture looks a little bit short for a live-aboard. I think it's about 40-45 feet, and I prefer the 60+ footers for live-aboards myself. There's really not much space inside the hulls so if I were you I would go with a 60+ footer and build my living accommodations on deck, then just use the space inside the hulls for equipment and storage but not for living space.

    I'll hire a local builder to make one for you if you want, then I'll take it apart and ship it to you when he's finished. They are all lashed together with monofilament fishing line anyways so it's a simpe task to disasemble then reassemble one.

    You'll have to be satisfied with traditional Filipino construction if you want the lowest price of course, but the price will be VERY low this way. Last time I checked (several years ago) I could order a new one about 60 feet long for something like $20,000 including the surplus engine from a diesel truck. The current price is bound to be higher but I wouldn't know by how much unless I check again.

    :)
     
  6. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member

    Hello again ,

    This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

    Thank you tom28571 and Kengrome much appreciated :)

    What got me thinking about these boats as coastal cruisers was the lengthy thread on long skinny power boats.Seems to me , what you have here, is a long thin power canoe,or dory.As a powerboat it would be relatively efficient.
    Kubota diesel ?

    The one pictured is said to be just over 50 ft.Probably enough room for a pilot house , dinette and two double berths, head / shower .
    50 - 60 ft loa wharram Pahi type thing , maybe more breadth at waterline ?
    Akas also wharram style and as you said lashings to take the stresses.

    About the rig.
    Yes all agreed about the sailing. Was thinking downwind aux.rig .If it`s worth the expense I don`t know.These rigs seem reasonable and cheap :

    http://www.boatshop.com.ph/portfolio/adler.gif

    http://www.boatshop.com.ph/portfolio/tunkil.gif

    This kind of hull could be built anywhere , so I don`t know if it would make sense to have this built in the Phillipines and then shipped here.It would depend on costs?

    How "good" or "bad" ? is traditional Phillipino construction?
     
  7. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Shipping to australia would be problematic if wood is used. There are severe limitations on timber products imported from tropical countries to australia.

    The way around it is to have the thing made of ply, and encapsulated in epoxy before launching, and build the simple Amas over here. Worth checking out.

    I believe Kengrome to be very knowledgable on that kind of construction. For 20 or 30K you MIGHT be paying duty of 5% (check to see the Phillipines Trade agreement status - eg US made boats are duty free), then Cost +Duty x 10% GST. Add freight and possible fumigation/treatment of up to $3000

    Interesting project - keep us up to date.
     
  8. kengrome
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    kengrome Senior Member

    Any kind of diesel would work fine.

    Make that cabin area longer and you're probably right.

    Not if you want the same fuel efficiency.

    Actually monofilament lashings are used because they are simple and cheap. In the Philippines almost everything is decided based on price, with the lowest price winning out in nearly all cases. This is why things need a lot more maintenance here than in developed countries -- because Filipinos do not invest the money upfront for the long-term benefit of low maintenance. Instead they simply spend the time and money on maintenance later when it becomes necessary.

    If you have it built in a developed country it will easily cost you 2-3 times as much for the same hull since everything is so much more expensive -- and I think shipping to Australia is much less that to destinations further away too. Still it may make sense to do some comparison shopping -- after you list and define your priorities.

    It's fine if you don't mind the maintenance. Filipinos have been building boats and living off the sea for literally thousands of years, so it's not like they build crappy boats. But their boats require a lot of ongoing maintenance too, and they seem to have all the time in the world to do this maintenance, whereas most non-Filipinos would rather pay more to avoid much of this ongoing maintenance.

    Where do you stand here?

    If you value your time and want a boat that requires as little maintenance as possible you'll have to 'spend the money' to get a boat built using modern high-tech materials -- such as the Tunkil Reefer in that second picture you posted earlier -- and in this case you should NEVER hire a Filipino builder because they will do almost everything the 'wrong way' since they don't understand how to build boats for the typical first-world country citizen.

    Hiring someone like me who is an American employing Filipinos is a different story. I teach them how to do things my way, and I watch them like a hawk to insure that they do things properly. But do not make the mistake of expecting similar performance from a Filipino-run company because it's never going to happen.

    On the other hand, if all you care about is having a cheap boat you can get 5-10 years use out of before you dispose of it, and if you don't mind keeping up with the regular maintenance such a boat will require, then just buy yourself a much less costly Filipino-built boat and you'll have a great time on it until the boat is ready for its final bonfire!

    :)

    The only restriction when shipping to the USA is fumigation, and that's a standard procedure here when shipping anything out of the country that's not made of processed wood.
     
  9. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member

    Hello Ken

    Many thanks for the info.

    I think I may not have fully understood your previous post.

    I was under the impression that there was such a thing as " traditional philipino construction " as applied to Plywood !!

    If I go ahead with this , it will certainly be built of plywood on frames / stringers. Epoxy and glass exterior , 3x coats epoxy interior .
    Paint finish.Good workboat finish.Not "yachty gold plater ".
    Little , ( if any ) brightwork.( does not really suit this type of boat I feel ?)

    My reference to wider waterline referred to a wharram style pahi hull , widened at the waterline.( It was a poor ref. anyway because I would think this would be a power dory not a wharram v hull . sorry )

    Amas similar to the the " reefer ", yes .Lashed on , yes .....

    If this makes sense after shipping , Gst, ( our " 10 % goods and sevices " tax )and customs charges etc, then I would certainly want this built by someone who knows how to use glass / epoxy and good plywood on frame boat building practice.

    I don`t mind maintaining the thing , but it needs to be built well enough that you don`t become a slave to it.

    Thanks again for the reply Ken , I have some calls to make to our friendly customs office and taxation dept , amongst others....:D
     
  10. kengrome
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    kengrome Senior Member

    When I refer to typical Filipino boat building this is what I mean:

    1- Frames and stringers let into each other and nailed with copper boat nails

    2- Hull sheathed in marine plywood of an appropriate thickness for the side and bottom of the boat, and nailed to the frames and stringers with copper boat nails, countersunk and with epoxy filling the nail depressions on the outside of the hull

    3- Epoxy used to glue the edges of the plywood hull panels where they come together because this is the only place where water might come in through the hull instead of over the top

    Filipinos don't know anything about fiberglass, so you should not ask them to sheathe a hull with it. You should have a foreigner boat builder sheathe the hull after the local builders have finished building it but before they paint it if you really want glass on the outside of the hull -- but you'd be adding substantial cost to what would otherwise have been a very affordable boat.

    If you're worried about rot it may make sense to treat the wood with rot prevention chemicals before it is installed (they have a good quality Zinc Naphthenate wood treatment pesticide here) although a local builder may not want to follow the proper procedures when using such a chemical -- and once again you're adding expense that Filipinos will not.

    Don't let a Filipino builder fair your hull because he will more than likely use polyester-based auto body filler and this material invariably breaks off the plywood in chunks at a later date. Of course Filipinos generally never bother fairing their own plywood hulls anyways, so this shouldn't be an issue if you let them build a boat like they would do it for themselves instead of asking for 'something better' like foreigner often do ... :)

    You can get a Filipino builder to apply 3 coats of epoxy inside the boat if you want, but I think it's a waste of money myself. I wouldn't bother applying epoxy to boats like these in an effort to prevent rot when there are cheaper alternatives available. Instead of epoxy I would use thinned red lead primer inside the hull and save myself a lot of unnecessary expense.

    Local builders typically use gloss oil-based enamel paint (gloss highlights every little imperfection in the underlying surface but they seem to be good at overlooking unimportant issues like these) and they only apply as much as needed to make the boat look good from a reasonable distance. If there are imperfections in the wood they seldom worry about filling or fairing them so you will see the 'genuine' workboat finish as soon as you get anywhere near the hull.

    To me this suggests hiring a foreign boat builder who will manage the project even if most or all of the actual labor is performed by his Filipino employees. This adds to the cost of course, but you get a better boat out of it too ... so basically you get what you pay for either way.

    I think there are very few westerners who are capable of accepting a typical Filipino-built boat these days. Most of them -- like you -- are attracted by the low price, but they would really rather have a better boat, so they invariably add all kinds of expensive features that Filipinos either don't bother with because they are unnecessary expenses, or they don't know how to do it anyways such as in the case of fiberglass sheathing.

    This is why I suggested that you define your priorities. The fact is, I've lived here long enough to become very familiar with the Filipino mentality, and here's my generalization about it:

    The vast majority of Filipinos really don't care what a particular product looks like as long as it works. For example, they will not spend more money for three coats of epoxy inside the hull when skipping the epoxy and applying a coat of paint makes it look 'good enough'. In fact many of their hulls have no coatings at all inside. They know they are going to have to repair the wood sooner or later anyways, and that's why they cannot imagine spending $100 on epoxy in advance -- when a day or two of their own labor plus $10 worth of materials will fix the problem later for 90% less.

    There's actually a lot of common sense in this when you think about it.
     
  11. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member

    Ken :
    Filipinos don't know anything about fiberglass, so you should not ask them to sheathe a hull with it....

    BF:
    No , if that is true , you should not ask them to.


    K:
    You should have a foreigner boat builder sheathe the hull after the local builders have finished building it but before they paint it if you really want glass on the outside of the hull -- but you'd be adding substantial cost to what would otherwise have been a very affordable boat.


    BF:
    Same as anywhere , Ken.


    K:
    If you're worried about rot it may make sense to treat the wood with rot prevention chemicals before it is installed (they have a good quality Zinc Naphthenate wood treatment pesticide here) although a local builder may not want to follow the proper procedures when using such a chemical -- and once again you're adding expense that Filipinos will not.



    BF:
    You get what you pay for .......


    K:
    Don't let a Filipino builder fair your hull because he will more than likely use polyester-based auto body filler and this material invariably breaks off the plywood in chunks at a later date. Of course Filipinos generally never bother fairing their own plywood hulls anyways, so this shouldn't be an issue if you let them build a boat like they would do it for themselves instead of asking for 'something better' like foreigner often do ... :)

    BF:
    I would expect it to be built well enough , that it would need very little fairing .All quite achievable in plywood.



    K:
    You can get a Filipino builder to apply 3 coats of epoxy inside the boat if you want, but I think it's a waste of money myself. I wouldn't bother applying epoxy to boats like these in an effort to prevent rot when there are cheaper alternatives available. Instead of epoxy I would use thinned red lead primer inside the hull and save myself a lot of unnecessary expense.

    BF
    Ok , I guess you could do that .
    BTW ....Red lead is no longer available here in Oz....
    Not considered safe or healthy.Banned as far as I know?


    K:
    :!: To me this suggests hiring a foreign boat builder who will manage the project even if most or all of the actual labor is performed by his Filipino employees. This adds to the cost of course, but you get a better boat out of it too ... so basically you get what you pay for either way.:!:

    BF:
    As always Ken.


    K:
    I think there are very few westerners who are capable of accepting a typical Filipino-built boat these days. Most of them -- like you -- are attracted by the low price, but they would really rather have a better boat,



    BF:
    :!: I Need to clear this up Ken ,I was never attracted to the low price :!:

    In fact , I would rather pay a little more get the job done properly and
    not constantly have to scrape and patch and paint and grind and sand ,
    in an effort to stay afloat.

    I was attracted by the concept....just happened to be Filipino type boat ..
    Long skinny powerboat...



    K:
    .... so they invariably add all kinds of expensive features that Filipinos either don't bother with because they are unnecessary expenses, or they don't know how to do it anyways such as in the case of fiberglass sheathing.


    BF:
    I can understand that actually....in the Filipines.....
    F.G. Sheathing is hardly rocket science though , is it ?:D



    K:
    This is why I suggested that you define your priorities. The fact is, I've lived here long enough to become very familiar with the Filipino mentality, and here's my generalization about it:

    The vast majority of Filipinos really don't care what a particular product looks like as long as it works. For example, they will not spend more money for three coats of epoxy inside the hull when skipping the epoxy and applying a coat of paint makes it look 'good enough'. In fact many of their hulls have no coatings at all inside. They know they are going to have to repair the wood sooner or later anyways, and that's why they cannot imagine spending $100 on epoxy in advance -- when a day or two of their own labor plus $10 worth of materials will fix the problem later for 90% less.

    There's actually a lot of common sense in this when you think about it.



    BF:
    Thank you very much for your insight Ken .
    Most enlightening.

    I agree with what you wrote.

    I guess I`m just not Filipino. ;)
     
  12. kengrome
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    kengrome Senior Member

    Clearly I'm generalizing when I say this. Obviously there are some Filipinos who know how to sheathe a hull in epoxy and glass, but the typical boat builder is not one of them. Instead it is usually the wealthier class (or 'leisure class') who have computers, internet access, money, time for hobbies, etc. and who learn about western type construction because of their better education and/or travel opportunities.

    After the hull is sheathed in glass there is a strong temptation by owners to want their hulls to be filled and faired a lot -- to make them look really smooth and sleek -- which means lots of additional filler, hours of long board sanding, wet sanding, etc. If you can avoid this temptation then it's not much additional work to sheathe the hull and fill the weave only. But given the fact that epoxy costs so much compared to all the other materials used in these boats, sheathing a hull in epoxy and glass is going to substantially increase the cost of the boat.

    Then again, these boats are so affordable to begin with that this extra cost is typically not an issue with western buyers, especially when it often substantially reduces the ongoing maintenance requirements. Still, when I think about sheathing a hull in epoxy and glass I personally prefer a different type of construction to go along with it.

    ... and in many other developed countries too. The thing is, it is no more dangerous than many other chemicals which are not banned, and it is very effective at discouraging rot in wood.

    I don't blame you! For most westerners it is usually a better decision to minimize future maintenance even if it costs a little more upfront.

    Not at all, but if you've never seen fiberglass cloth in your life, and if the only type of epoxy you've ever seen and used is the kind that already has fillers and thickeners added to it in the can, and it is the consistency of paste or peanut butter, you might not have a clue of where to begin when someone asks you to sheathe the hull exterior in epoxy and fiberglass.

    ... yet you can still get a really good boat built for you in the Philippines using some of the best boat building materials available on earth ... and it can be a boat that's styled like a Philippine banca but built using modern techniques and materials to minimize maintenance and maximize useful life.

    It seems like a really good boat for your needs too. But if you want my personal opinion, I prefer having such a boat re-engineered to be built using plywood cored composite sandwich construction, with bulkheads instead of frames and stringers. This produces a boat with a much stronger and stiffer and more waterproof and rot resistant 'monocoque' structure. It also makes the interior nicer to look at, more likely to remain dry, easier to clean, easier to install furniture and fixtures, and encourages the use of some of the hull interior as living space.
     
  13. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member


    :idea: yes not a bad idea either ! :idea:

    :idea: Stitch and glue even :idea:

    I actually always pictured the hull as being used for accommodation..
    That hull may be slim ,but it could still accommodate two double berths , settee and heads.Rather than stacking all on deck you lowered your cog , and air draft is kept lower , and you could just raise a relatively small pilot house to see where you are going.

    It may be possible to use a flush deck over almost all living space . 50 ft max would be good .

    I looked over a "favorite" site recently ;
    http://www.kastenmarine.com/molly36.jpg

    Thats only a 36 footer , 6 ft headroom even ! Its close to what I was thinking it should look like. - Understated elegance - in a way.
     
  14. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member


  15. Zilver
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    Zilver Junior Member

    It looks like the perfect holiday boat :
    fast, large deck space, the outrigger is an easy place to step in the canoes/on land, it's beautiful and sleek etc.etc.

    If I would have the money for a big motor boat I'd want to buy this one...

    Hans
     
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