Wood as a Boatbuilding Material

You’re right Dave, in the last few days those that knew little about you and Mike are getting to know you. Maybe we aren’t talking apples and oranges, more like different varieties of apples. But we still like to discuss which is sweeter. It's in our nature.

Good Night All
Gary

 

There is always a niche for the most unusual product. New techniques allow the same product to be built cheaper. I am referring to price and not quality. For example, epoxy is a better glue than the hot hide glue. It last longer, adheres better and mildew doesn't attack it. I critizise worship of old methods, when new ones are better. There are many enduring ways of building. Old work boats, like work trucks nowadays, were expected to last fifteen to twenty years. The modern market for boats requires more longevity. Therefore, the old methods don't work. We need to modify them.

 

Valid point about the old workboats, Gonzo, but all wooden boats can't be painted with that brush. For example, the 56-ft Marguerite T was recently given "a shave and a haircut" to spruce her up a bit (about a 40% replacement of planks, a new deck, and a revised interior) before she set about a year-long voyage from Nova Scotia to England via the Caribbean and the Med. The boat was purchased for about $40,000 USD, and about that amount was invested in the rebuild. At the end of the process she was well-found for trans-Atlantic voyages, won several prizes for her looks and sailing ability, and was sold for almost twice the investment in her. I'm not sure that there are many fibreglass or metal boats that can be expected to perform that well structurally or financially, especially at 110 years of age. And by the way, Marguerite T was not a pampered rich-man's toy - she spent the first seventy-five years of her life as a working pilot boat on the rugged west coast of Britain. A 'glass boat would have been beaten into dust in that vocation and length of service. Another rebuttal to the "wooden workboats don't last" argument is Elly, a former Swedish commercial fishing smack that was converted to a family yacht after her fishing career was over. Her exact age is unknown, but the earliest record of her was a bill of sale from one fisherman to another in 1872!! If you're counting, that makes her over 130 years old. All of her planking has probably been replaced in the last century or so, but at least it can be, and her keel and framing and deck structure are original. She was "paid out" of the commercial fishing fleet in 1899, and has been used every year since then by five generations of parents and kids.

Don't take me wrong - I'm not saying that all wooden boats are that good, and I appreciate (and design) metal and FRP boats; but am just pointing out that old technologies and materials are not necessarily outdated and useless technologies and materials. Also, the old saw that wooden boats cost too much to maintain has been pretty much shot down, too (most recently in a comparative study published in Professional Boatbuilder, I believe). They require more frequent small doses of maintenance, which bothers the "jump in and go" crowd, but over a ten year period the cost of maintenance in dollars and manhours for both trad wood and FRP are within a few percentage points of each other. I will add the codecil that if you throw acres of varnished exterior wood into the mix, especially in hot southern climates, that maintaining that specific component is a bear at times, but that applies to fancy FRP gin palaces dripping with varnished mahogany trim as well.

On the plus side, wooden boats don't suffer from the core delamination and osmotic blistering that FRP boats are prone to. They do occasionally rot, but that is usually attributable to poor maintenance or poor original construction methods. The advantage is that replacing a rotten plank is a much smaller and easier job than grinding off the blisters of an FRP hull and re-laminating, fairing, and repainting, and OSHA rules isn't usually a factor with a plank replacement. When compared to metal boats, wood doesn't suffer as much from galvanic corrosion caused by stray current in marinas that aluminum boats do, nor do they rust like steel does. In my northern waters, wood provides a modicum of insulation from the cold waters of my cruising area that metal or 'glass does not. It also insulates the interior from punishing heat when in warmer climes. In a seaway, wooden boats are quieter underway due to the sound damping properties of wood. Should some accident befall me while out cruising, I can repair almost all but the largest of structures on a wooden boat in a secluded cove far from the nearest power outlet, using nothing but a small bag of hand tools and a few pieces of readily-available material. Finally, the warm touch and colour of a painted or bright-finished wooden interior is a joy to look at, easy to keep clean, and easy to customise to the owner's tastes.

Of course, wood is not the best material available, bar none. Like all other materials, it has it's Achilles heels. A traditionally built plank-on frame boat is expensive to build today because of the paucity of quality timber in large sizes at reasonable cost, but wood composite construction such as strip-built in epoxy with laminated structures is a viable and cost-effective alternative. Traditional wood construction is long-lived up here in chilly waters of the North Atlantic, but down in the warmer climes it is susceptible to marine borers; again wood composite with a protective sheathing of FRP set in epoxy enables a light, strong structure that is immune to those little critters that want to eat it. And, of course, wood's greatest disability is that it's construction methods do not lend themselves well to mass-production.

Is a wood boat better than anything else? Of course not, it is a material with as wide a variety of strengths and weaknesses as any other material. Any competent designer and builder will be aware of the restriction placed on him by the material he uses, and will design and build with them in mind; wood is no different in this way. Is wood's use as a building material a moribund old technology that should be relegated to the dustbin of history? Definitely not. The design and construction of wooden boats is still a viable and evolving technology, and will continue to function and evolve in the niche markets that is is so suitable for, namely custom and semi-custom cruising yachts for discerning clients who want quality, functionality, and the aesthetic pleasure of wooden boats, and for home builders who want a custom product of their own making without having to worry about introducing the health and fire hazards of welding and flammable chemistry into their basements and garages.

For those who may not be familiar with what can be produced in strip-cold moulded wood construction, check out this website and have a peek in the gallery and current projects sections: www.coveyisland.com

 

If they replaced 40% of the planking this time, what's left of the original boat? Anything will "last forever" if you keep on fixing it. Those boats are not old, but rebuilt from salvage. Also, OSHA and the EPA regulate wooden boat building and repair as much as fiberglass (the 'glass gave you up as a WBer. Old boats have lead which is a hazardous material. Wood dust is also a health and explosion hazard. As for osmotic blisters and delamination, those are design and construction defects and not a characteristic of a material. Wood deteriorates with galvanic action. The chlorine and acids formed by decomposition of water and metal ions breaks down the wood fibers. Marinas are the death of boats. Also, the wooden boats you mentioned were worked in northern salt water. That preserves the wood. In fresh water and even more in the tropics they would have desintegrated.

 

[Gonzo:
If they replaced 40% of the planking this time, what's left of the original boat?

Reply:This does not happen but in a percentage of cases, that i will let stand without quoting a specific number.

Gonzo:
Anything will "last forever" if you keep on fixing it. Those boats are not old, but rebuilt from salvage.

Reply:
Sorry, this can apply to anything. BUt at what age did the fixing start, even in the older ones? Weak arguement.


Gonzo:
Also, OSHA and the EPA regulate wooden boat building and repair as much as fiberglass (the 'glass gave you up as a WBer. Old boats have lead which is a hazardous material. Wood dust is also a health and explosion hazard.

Reply:
Ever heard of the hazards and restrictions governing the building from the components of polyester, and the modifications to the plants of airbourne equipments, to filtering system? Ever heard of the long term effects on workers from laminating resins? This is much larger than the health hazards of Epoxy resins. AND Epoxy ain't that safe, either.


Gonzo:
As for osmotic blisters and delamination, those are design and construction defects and not a characteristic of a material.

Reply:
This is more of a pain in the rear than fixing a wooden plank, or repairing a damage to wood, and a huge cost to the owner in maintainance. Have you checked the latest restrictions and guidlines on gringing bottom paint, and the desposal of the waste, to fix blister problems?


Gonzo:
Wood deteriorates with galvanic action. The chlorine and acids formed by decomposition of water and metal ions breaks down the wood fibers. Marinas are the death of boats. Also, the wooden boats you mentioned were worked in northern salt water. That preserves the wood. In fresh water and even more in the tropics they would have desintegrated.

reply:
So, not all boats boat in warm waters. We surely don't govern our lives and standards by a certain area in this world. Not all areas of the world are equiped to build plastic boats, either. Not all areas of the world, have the demand for the quantity of plastic boats, needed to return the investment for the initial costs of operation of a plastic boat building operation.

All I am saying is that when one labels a wooden boat lover a blow boater and an ancient dinosaur, this is as far from the actual truth, and I along with facts holds this comment a shallow, at best. And we would all just destroy ever house, like do away with every wooden one, in the historical districts in the world including Europe, if we took the approach that its just laced with unlimited amount of maintainance costs, to reap any return from the outlay of the funds.

Heck lets look at the issue of freshwater rot in homes that we all live in, in all climates of the world. Nuff said from here. I enjoy it as a passion for creation, limited only by the amount of life I have left, on this world. Does this make one want to render me usless, upon needing a heart or lung transplant? because it is a love for me. But I have come full circle. I don't need a lot of number of boats, anymore, to survive financially. Maybe this fogs my brain, when addressing this love. Oh course love and lust is blind, they say. Cheers and thanks for the bandwitdh and time.

 

You guys

Wood n't (intentional pun) know timber or shipbuildin if it reared up n bit ya's on de bum.

For that you gotta get upside down fella's.

Yous wanna know bout buildin wood boats just gimme a hoi!

Cheers!

 

"For example, epoxy is a better glue than the hot hide glue. "

I wouldn't jump so quick to conclusions.

Nobody has come up with a better glue than ancient hide glue for chairs. All round tenon joints eventually break their glue bond...epoxy might take longer to break, but it will eventually fail in a round chair stretcher...the advantage of hide glue is that it's the only one that dissolves it's own old residue, thus being very easy to renew.

 

Trouty, you would be surprised the stories, our own Dave Fleming could share in his mentoring series. Mentoring is very much promoted in all aspects of our lives, to better many peoples lives, especially the young ones. This keeps many things alive, in real life, and in such things as cabinetry work, stuff needed in every boat, made of any material. We all learn a lot, if we all would listen to our grandparents, and even to our children.

By the way, you will not hear me promoting epoxy glue as a cure all for all things considered marine, Bob.

edited to say I have been up since 4 am. this morning, work on a secret project. Eyes and mind slows with age, over time, too.

 

Oyster says: "to batter many peoples lives, especially the young ones."

We don't approve of child abuse here..... ;-) However, having accused Dave of being Flaming, I suppose I should just shut up now ;-P

 

Well trouty, is this the next America's Cup contender?
Oyster. My argument stands that those "old boats" are really rebuilt from salvage. It starts with the first repair; regardless of materials.
" All I am saying is that when one labels a wooden boat lover a blow boater and an ancient dinosaur, this is as far from the actual truth, and I along with facts holds this comment a shallow, at best. And we would all just destroy ever house, like do away with every wooden one, in the historical districts in the world including Europe, if we took the approach that its just laced with unlimited amount of maintainance costs, to reap any return from the outlay of the funds. "
First many wooden boat lover are stinkpotters. I never called them ancient dionosaurs, but said the techniques for building old boat were often antiquated. Also, I never advocated destroying anything. As for mainteinance and construction costs of ships, steel is the cheapest. There was a time when a tea clipper pay for itself in one trip. The labor costs are prohibitive now. Replicas are built with a large amount of volunteers. Is the only thing that makes them viable. I build in wood among other materials. In small boats it is very competitive. And yes, I can build in several old styles. My current project, unpaid at that, is a lapstrake whitehall that will hang from the stern of the "Dennis Sullivan". I like to teach volunteers the old arts. Also, I take the time to compare them with newer methods. Let them choose.

 

Okay, i will buy your words. In return, would you answer a question for me? In all sincerity, what design do you advocate for the new modern era boater? If you can elaborate on its merits, then please feel free to do so, please. And what do you advocate for the novice, to introduce themselves and their family to boating and the water, in today's economic enviroment, considering price for a recreational user, and family of four?

Also if you would convey to me, being a newbie here,, what brings you to this site? What relates you to the boating industry now, besided your class, you speak about, today?

First many wooden boat lover are stinkpotters
Just curious, and this will help me understand why the comments of wooden boater boaters being stinkpoters. I find just the opposite, in my travels.

 

Wanna replicate the door light etchings of a 1920's cruiser in-shop during a restoration?

Another use for hide glue is "glue chipping" on glass, to produce the look of etching. Patterns made with masking tape on either common or "antique" glass.

A very strong preparation of hide glue is applied to a sheet of glass. The glue contracts as it cools until sections of it pop free--holding shards that have been literally ripped from the surface of the glass sheet. Full protective gear is a must, as the shards fly in every direction.

Chipping-quality glue is expensive--$9/pound at www.bjorn.net, with a five-pound minimum order.

 

Well Oyster check out my website and see part of what I do. I think that people can be introduced to boatbuilding with many materials. If you are a welder, by all means buy steel and make a boat. A cabinet maker will be more comfortable with wood. The Outer Banks are one of the few places that are actively building wooden boats. They are, as you know, powerboats. In the NE most wooden boats are also powerboats; for lobstering and such. I think that few people nowadays think of an economy boat; even at the entry level. When I was a kid, a 16' outboard was a boat. Today it is barely a dinghy. People expect a lot of accomdations and comforts that cost a lot of money. I still sail small boats because, to me, are more fun. However, I'm at a loss explaining someone who wants A/C, a stereo, space for eight people sleeping, TV, etc. what the wonders of a kerosene lamp and no electronics are.

 

Gonzo, you say:
"However, I'm at a loss explaining someone who wants A/C, a stereo, space for eight people sleeping, TV, etc. what the wonders of a kerosene lamp and no electronics are."

I think this is one of those rare cases where if you _have_ to explain it, you _know_ they'll never understand.
Sad, but true. And I'm sure they feel the same way in return....

Steve

 

Gonzo, many people being introduced to boating, has more skills with a hammer and wood, than a welding machine. Building with wood, today, can be done by a complete novice, in their garage, with little or no prior experience. Cost play a big role in the introduction to the water, today. How many times do we see that words on forums, to the likes of AC plywood, purchased from the orange store. This gets people out on the water, along with the fun of learning a trade, or another skill in the process. Some of these folks go on to take up the skill learned, as a profession. There are huge advantages to the boat building in wood, even in today's big toy department of our society.

But this, in turn, also allows for children to gain a lot from this, in the form of patience is the key to verture. This is not taught in the era of e-mails, faxes and cell phones. It gives a fesh air approach to the addage of "working for what you want" learning as you go. This is exactly why I do promote the small plans approach and the community building projects, afforded by wood products.

It goes past a rotten boat approach, that some do choose to take, with sometimes a less successful ratio of success.