windsurf to Sailboat

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by yenice, Oct 14, 2015.

  1. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
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    CT249 Senior Member

    I'm one of those who used to scoff at the inclined rig craft, including the ones thast Frank Bethwaite used to sail in front of our house, and those that used to do the UK speed trials. It was strange to go from the windsurfing world championships at a time when we were experimenting with ways to keep our rigs more upright (because we had found that leaning the rig to windward too much is normally slower) to the Weymouth Speed Trials and watch people experiment with ways to incline their proa rigs. Even stranger was the fact that the guys inclining the boat rigs didn't seem to ask the windsurfers who were dominating the trials with upright rigs how the boards worked. Garry Hoyt was one person who did ask windsurfers about the lessons they had learned about absolute speed, and he reported that much to his surprise, the windsurfers didn't think that windward rake was important.

    Of course, Speedrocket proved that in terms of ultimate speed in ideal conditions, those of us who scoffed were wrong - but windsurfers are still trying to keep the rig upright most of the time, and (as Frank Bethwaite's boat showed) in real life conditions, where you encounter puffs and lulls, the inclined rig proa idea still doesn't seem to work.

    I seem to recall that Frank also tried swinging the rig over the top from side to side, but it's a cumbersome process and you still end up with other problems. It was also tried on a C Class cat, and also failed, and a windsurfer tried the "wind weapon" which pretty much failed.

    The gap between speed record setting gear and practical gear can be shown by windsurfers - the 30cm to 45cm wide boards with 45 litres of less of volume can be used to set speed records, but in 90% of sailing spots, 97% of the time they literally sink and the rest of the time they can't go anywhere. :)
     
  2. yenice
    Joined: Oct 2015
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    yenice Junior Member

    CT249
    Thank you again for your experience and the explanations. I would like to note again that my aim is by no means to race or make a speed record, but to sail with some planning when conditions are suitable for the fun and enjoyment. But on the other hand, if that means months or years of tweaking and building, I do not think that my life will be enough to see the results, and I also do not think that I would have that much persistence and patience :)

    Trika 540 look very interesting. Lightweight and also very practical. But the only problem I can see is that my car is 4.5 meters and this boat is longer then my car. Invitation for traffic fines for me :-(

    How would paperjet design be for my case? It is smaller than my car length but the hull weight is 45 kg. A little on the heavy side to lift on the car top. I do not know if that weight could be reduced to 30 kg by construction or not.
    http://www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm
    Would sailing paperjet too much for my age and health?
     
  3. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    It is difficult for us to advise you on maters of your health and impossible to assure you won't be hurt. We just don't know the nature of your back problem. The majority of lower back problems are due to straining muscles that are not in shape -regular exercise can cure these. Some cases are from damage or misalignment -working these can lead to greater damage.

    In sailing these small boats there is no bent over hauling like in windsurfing. But there is lots of hiking (sit ups) and the occasional climb onto the dagger board for righting and climbing aboard. So operation would be an improvement for your back. Getting to the water would be far worse. You could handle it with the right gear and procedure but it is troublesome.

    You have a set of requirements, lets give them a bit more consideration.
    1-fast, planing
    2-shorter than you car
    3-light -easy to carry/handle
    4-compatible with bad lower back

    1 and 2 tend to conflict. To make short hulls go fast takes lots of power which leads to higher forces which leads to bigger heavier gear which violates 3 and 4. Planing (getting to Fn 2.5) will get you to 8 or 9 knots on a 12ft hull. This will take quite a bit of force -higher wind speed will reduce the amount of sky you need to sweep with the sail to get that force. A wider flatter hull will provide more lift and plane sooner -it will also be slower when wind is light and be more sensitive to being sailed upright. At this point we should also talk about wind direction. The experts here think of "fast" sailboats in terms of windward/leeward race performance. If you are just looking for some fast reaching back and forth in front of your launch point (typical windsurfer) that is far less demanding. So if you are only looking to sail fast on a reach on very windy days a wide flat planing hull can do it. Paperjet at 45Kg is a very reasonable weight and a good all around (windward leeward) sailor. For simple speed reaching you could build a scow that would plane sooner -like a big squared surfboard. I have a design somewhere for a light 11 footer I could dig out if you are interested.

    All of these planing dingies will be too awkward to carry with your bad back so lets give a bit of consideration to 3 and 4. Multihulls are a bit more complicated to build (more parts, attachments) but each part is simple and manageable. Because all the parts only have one large dimension they are far easier to carry. You can cut up a monohull (nesting dingy) but the weight of each part is multiplied by the distance between its center of mass and your back to get strain. A small multihull is naturally in easily managed pieces. The performance characteristics of multihulls are a bit different in that they sail fast in lighter wind where the planing dingy does poorly. In higher winds where the planing dingy takes off, the multihull tends to load up. This can be solved with lifting foils but that's another step up in complexity. The ultimate in light weight speed would be a foiling moth, or a foiling kite board (back issue). Another benefit of small multi hulls is that the easily driven hulls have the option of human power -if you want to go somewhere or schedule a sail, being less dependent on weather is important. Zipping 10 miles down the coast is not an option if it will take six hours of hard work to paddle or row back. The top speed might be less than your windsurfer, maybe less than a planning dingy in high winds -but the utility will be much greater. If you put 10 dates on your calendar that you would sail 10 miles out and back the multihull would be the boat to do it reliably and fun. The wide dingy would not be worth sailing some days. In the long run you are not getting any younger and I would venture to say that sailing the small multihull will still be of interest long after you would retire the planing dingy. One of my favorites is Meade Gougeon's sailing canoe -in his mid 80's he placed pretty high in the 300+ mile everglades challenge race and did it from the undisputed most comfortable ride.
     
  4. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    I don't know I'd find any great enthusiasm for the Paperjet. Its one of those boats that seems to be more aimed at the builder than the sailor. It isn't a shape I'd pick.

    Your problem is a tricky one, because a sailboat needs to be reasonably large to deliver a sparkling performance, but with size comes weight and bulk. For the *really* advanced sailor the modern International 10sq m Canoe delivers ample performance for moderate weight (50kg if you're a good enough builder) but its getting on 6m long and is a very idiosyncratic boat with a steep learning curve.
     
  5. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Yenice,

    What is your car top length limit in Turkey?
    Perhaps the Trica could be shortened.
     
  6. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Without going into too much detail, the Paper Jet does not seem to me to be a good shape. The very narrow and Veed bow does not create planing lift. The wide stern creates a lot of wetted surface drag and means the bow does not rise when the boat is planing, so all the pics of a PJ at high speed show the sailor right on the stern. The chines are very sharp and run all the way forward, which is slow and creates handling problems. The rocker looks very flat.

    The PJ looks like a design from about 1965. The thing is that in some places there were many thousands of development-class designs created after that date, which allowed for an enormous amount of development that created boats that handle better and go faster. When I was a kid there were 80 to 100 development-class dinghies out racing on most summer weekends within a 3km radius, so there was an enormous amount of testing and learning going on. The PJ ignores the lessons that people like Bethwaite, Farr, Morrison and Bieker learned from all that huge combined effort.

    A similar boat with a much better hull shape would be the Farr 3.7, which is also available in kit form or with laser-cut plywood panels.

    Another alternative would be a skinny canoe like Michael Storer's Beth, although he does say that she is too unstable to sail in strong winds unless you are an experienced dinghy sailor. The Beth could go OK with your windsurfer rigs, unlike the 3.7 or Paper Jet. See http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/beth.html

    The small tris I've seen are no really faster than a comparable dinghy and they are more complex to build and/or to rig, but they are fun to sail. They would definitely be worth looking at.

    For a simple small scow you could also look at the Australian scow Moths from the '70s and '80s like the Snubby, but they are hard to build and VERY fragile - my last Moth had a 1.2mm thick foredeck! Hull weight was around 25kg, I think.

    A simple and fun alternative could be the NZ Restricted Moth/Australian Mk II which is a bit slower than a Laser but would probably be faster on a reach and certainly lots of fun. See http://sportsground.co.nz/stewartsgullysailing/35489/

    I don't think the plans are very detailed which could make building an issue. Weight is 41kg. One of the top Moth designers reckons you a complete modern scow of this general type (without wings) could weigh as little as 25kg, with rig, but he is coming from a background in very sophisticated design and from a place where you can easily rig and launch such a boat.

    Actually in some ways a longer, lighter Sunfish type could be what you're looking for, but I don't know anyone who has designed one. It's a pity because it could be a lot of fun.

    EDIT - as ggggGuest said, the open sailing canoe is a very nice type of craft that fits most (or all) of your requirements. There's a very interesting video showing some of the Japanese Aquamuse types sailing quite well (despite some rather crude sails and techniques) at

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdAHSZ0mfIg

    You could probably find a cheap canoe locally and modify it to take your windsurfer rig and a centeboard and rudder. The windsurfer rig doesn't work very well on a normal dinghy but it would be reasonable efficient on a canoe.
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  8. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    You can't sail without windward rake in those conditions- without it you have no righting moment. But a lot of the time, reducing windward rake is faster, which is why Olympic medallists tell us to keep the rig upright when they are coaching.

    As top windsurfer racer Steve Bodner says "when we are sailing formula boards in high winds we sail with the rig to windward to keep things under control. However its just the opposite in light winds where we try to get the rig as vertical as possible to add more power. This is when you see racers sailing with their front hand on the uphaul and theirs rigs standing upright."

    For more examples, here is some info from a windsurfer racing pro;

    http://www.carbonsugar.com/racing/power-to-weight-your-stance-vs-antoines/

    Solveig Sayer (daughter of one of the pros Hoyt interviewed for the article mentioned earlier) says " I was working on keeping my head out and using the uphaul line to get farther out and in greater suspension." The technique of "using the uphaul line" is to hold the uphaul with the front hand, rather than the boom, to allow the rig to sit further upright.

    I think a lot of the reason people over-emphasise the importance of windward rake is because in the early boards like the original One Design we rake the rig to windward when sailing in strong winds. However, this is NOT because we want the lift - instead it's a reaction to the high drag of the rigs, and particularly of the fact that the rigs were designed so close to the centreboard that the boards round up in a breeze unless you displace the centre of effort to windward. The fact that c of e is to windward acts like an off-centre tow-line and therefore counteracts the weather helm.

    However, this much windward rake is NOT fast - it's just a necessity. .After all, why use power to lift a board instead of driving it forward when you are racing.

    The other thing that is very noticeable is that when you go for a jump, you change the rig trim dramatically, which underlines that the trim you use for speed is NOT the trim you use for lift.
     
  9. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    I think you are leaving out an important point -pointing. Some people here are just talking about sailing fast -speed records are set on a beam reach -recreational sailors do not put so much emphasis on VMG. ALL of your points are about VMG. Canting the sail to windward directly reduces angle of attack -making up for this lost angle with reduced displacement drag takes a lot of vertical lift. Favoring an upright sail IS the right answer for VMG MOST of the time with highly optimized rigs. Upright is NOT always the fastest way to sail -particularly if there is no shortage of alpha.
     
  10. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    But the rig is more upright when reaching than it is when sailing upwind (because there is less need to lean the rig to windward to create righting moment) so it can't just be that reducing rake improves pointing. If reducing windward rake improved speed we'd do it much more, and we'd do it much more when reaching too. Speed records are set at around 135 true, with little windward rake (as explained by people like coach Guy Cribb and demontrated in pics and vids of the top speed windsurfers).

    Windward rig rake to the degree seen in the inclined rig craft I was referring to (which raked further to windward than Sailrocket) is basically NEVER faster in a board in any situation I can recall, unless there are other issues. We can do it easily, and we do it sometimes to jump, to generate enough RM or to keep an old board balanced, but it's basically slow.

    One very easy test is to sail on a Raceboard or RSX downwind in a breeze. If you leave the mast track forward and stay in the straps, the rig is raked to windward more. You also go slower. If you move the mast track back, the rig sits upright and you go faster - even when your body weight stays in the same position.
     
  11. yenice
    Joined: Oct 2015
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    yenice Junior Member

    Some days have passed without any postings from my side, because I was looking at the alternatives presented to me and reading different websites and watching videos online. It took me some time to digest all these. I am still at the process of getting used to different ways of sailing. Many boats look just so good, so attractive even when they are so small and simple. As I enjoyed windsurfing, simplicity and small size is still my favorite.

    @Skyak #18
    Meade Gougeon's sailing canoe seems a good option even tens of years ahead of me if I may live and can stand on my feet then. The form and details of his woodwind is impressive to me. I will keep that in my mind.

    There is a producer making wooden Chesapeake 17 sea kayaks with 520 cm by 61 cm, 29 kg weight for single and also another larger version for 2 persons. They sell finished and kits I think. These can also be purchased in trimaran format, or can be equipped for trimaran parts after being used some time. The same company has a rental possibility which is good for me to try and do experiments on this boat. They are about 50 km from me near a highway I pass sometimes. This is a good way for me to come near the trimaran canoe option in the long run.

    @gggGuest #19
    Paperjet comments noted. IC looks good on videos but I do not know how it could be. Nothing similar I can see near me, nobody that has any experience on it. Most probably will be a frustration trying. I also considered the ─▒nternational moth with foils. This seems so nice to me, it is very sad that we had no such boats when I was a young guy. Too risky for me at my age and situation I guess.

    @upchurchmr #20
    Thanks for asking the limits for car topping here. I have previously asked somebody and received wrong information. I read the law after your post #20 and found to my surprise that I can go front by 1 meters and back by 2 meters extra. Since my car is 4.5 meters long, I can carry 7.5 meters (25 feet) hulls and mast pieces on top of my car. The maximum width is 1.76 meters (almost 6 feet). These dimensions are really big for me. But of course increases my options.

    @CT249 #21
    If I could own and sail a Farr 3.7, that would most probably make me feel very happy, the sailing videos are really what I would like to be doing. How many more years I can be doing that, no idea, but looks great to me. Not being able to use the windsurf rig is not so important at that option. The boat and its rig is very nice.

    Beth is interesting for me. I never sailed a canoe or a small boat with 2 masts. If I go the sea kayak version as I explained above, my windsurf rig maybe can be used together.

    I could only find one blurred picture of boat Snubby sailing and have no idea how it was, hard for me to make any comment on this one.

    Scow moths, Mk II do not look very attractive to me because of the rectangular shape. I understand they plan early, but somehow the shape did not feel all right to my taste. Have never seen such a boat so far, maybe that is why. But I will keep an eye open for these kind of boats in the fair we have in February, maybe I can see something similar.

    I watched the Japanese boats on the link provided. They look nice, some of the participants seem to be near my age too. This direction is also something new for me to have an eye in future.

    The discussion about keeping the rig upright or inclined for maximum speed is something I can not comment with my limited experience, but it is an area I would be willing to experiment whenever I am on the water with a sailboat and a rig that can be inclined from now on.

    I wish everybody a nice weekend on water if possible :)
     
  12. alan craig
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    alan craig Senior Member

    Hello Yenice, there must be thousands of people in your position and even more beginners who would like to experience windsurfing without the hassle of pulling the sail up out of the water. I thought of a solution years ago but never got around to trying it, but I will explain as you may be interested:

    Take something like a single hull of a catamaran and fit a removable ballasted keel and add an unstayed fully rotating mast and a rudder. The keel is removable and fitted on the beach so the only weight to lift onto your car roof is a single hull. The ballast weight should be just enough to allow very easy self righting but the narrow hull means almost no initial stability which means it must be balanced while sailing. The sailor would use a trapeze from the mast, and a sheet to control the sail. Tacking would be fairly easy as you just walk around the front of the mast, but I foresee problems with gybing; what do you do with the sheet when you allow the sail to swing around the front of the mast?

    I offer the idea as a solution but I do realize that it is something which would need building and might not work well first time .
     

  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Kona Kat

    Yenice, this was a solution to making windsurfing easier that I developed almost 40 years ago. It was called the Kona Kat and the mast was stepped in a cone molded into the deck so you could let go of the rig without it falling in the water. Back then it had a reefable rig with aluminum mast and wishbone.
    It was not as fast as a"normal" windsurfer but it was fun.
     

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