will this work? any better ideas?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by mosportsmen, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. mosportsmen
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    Location: Kirksville, MO

    mosportsmen Junior Member

    Hi this is my first post to this forum.

    I am making a pirogue and just started thinking about making it also accomidate a sail rig.

    [​IMG]

    I am building spud holes in this boat More photos here
    http://www.forumpictureprocessor.com/gallery.asp?gallery=1014

    What I have been thinking as you can see in my drawing is putting a sail base in the center of the front seat but i am not sure where a sail mast should go in relation to the front or midline of the boat. Also I was thinking I could make dagger boards that will fit into my spud holes and this might be better than a lee board hanging off the side.

    I know the dagger board position and the fact that I could make two and run with them both in is not very conventional.....but could it work?

    Sorry if this is crazy but I really know nothing about sailing. My total experience sailing has been as a passenger and a sailboard lesson.
     
  2. Skippy
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: cornfields

    Skippy Senior Member

    Are you saying you want to use the existing spudholes -- what in the world is a spudhole? -- to mount dagger boards? They will make turning a lot slower.
    One possibility would be to mount the rudder in the aft spudhole and a small daggerboard in the forward one. Phil Bolger has a design like that in "Boats with an Open Mind". Handling is still a little tricky though.
    Another option would be one or more leeboards. It's best to pivot them on each side of the hull, which might require at least a few screwholes, but there are old-fashioned boats that use one unattached leeboard connected to the hull floor by a bungee cord. You have to move the unattached board to the other side of the boat each time you tack.
    A third route would be to make a really long keel that extends the entire length between the two holes and mounts into both of them. That will be a little slow due to the high wetted surface area, but will track well and have very little draft.
     
  3. Skippy
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Skippy Senior Member

    mosportsmen, here's a setup that should work wonderfully. Instead of transom rudder and spud-hole daggerboards, put a large rudder under the aft spud hole, and a smaller rudder under the forward hole. Then mount four blocks on the gunnels, one on each side of each tiller, and connect the tillers with two lightweight lines, one on each side. I think the lines should be connected to the end the forward tiller and the middle of the aft one. That way the forward tiller won't turn excessively. The boat will be fast and easy to turn, and only the blocks require screw holes.
     
  4. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    For what it's worth you've designed a canoe, a pirogue if you want, but a small, tender (tippy) little craft, that will likely row reasonably well (keep it light) motor to and above displacement speeds with ease (the faster you go, the more unstable it will become) that needs a rig, steering and accommodation for lateral resistance.

    Skip the multiple daggerboards and try not to reinvent the fish, when more conventional thinking will serve you much better.

    To answer your question, sure it will work and twin, centerline mounted boards have been done before with great success.

    Now back to reality, you don't have a clue where to put things and why they need to be there right? I'll be willing to guess you haven't done any calculations nor understand the concepts for their employment. Am I with you so far?

    There's a book or two you need to absorb before you can expect some success, unless you can talk someone into designing a rig, sufficient lateral plane and steering arrangements for you.

    "Canoe Rig: Essence and the Art: Sailpower for Antique and Traditional Canoes" is the book to get you started. It's about 20 bucks at Amazon .com, cheaper if found at a used book store. It will provide you with enough information to get you under sail. Otherwise you'll be guessing a lot, redoing a lot, cussing a lot and generally a bunch of head scratching that isn't necessary with a little understand and some pretty pictures.
     
  5. mosportsmen
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    mosportsmen Junior Member

    Thanks for the advice guys. The sailing is an extra on this boat. Everything to do with sailing I will want to be easily removeable. I forgot to say that in my original post.

    The reason I am asking now and in a bit of a hurry is because the boat is under construction. I just got the bottom seems taped last night.

    The spud holes will be located pretty far fore and aft to be out of the way of the body of the boat. Spud holes are for driving a pole through into the mud for an anchor while you are duck hunting.

    For now the only question I need answered is where do I put the mast base?
    I was thinking of making a hole in the front seat (located in a typical canoe front seat position) Would it be better to not build the hole in the seat and mast base this far rearward? If the mast position would be better further forward I could always add it in. I have seen many homemade sail rigs with the mast stuck way up in the bow. I thought it might be a good idea if it were back a little further. But IF I use the front spud hole to mount a removeable keel it is pretty strange to have a keel forward of the mast. Also what size hole would I make for the mast? What is available to use for a mast at my local home depot?
     
  6. Skippy
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Skippy Senior Member

    The mast of a cat rig is farther forward than in a rig with (a) headsail(s), especially with a low aspect sail, which will have a long foot. PAR is right that you could benefit from a lot of reading.

    Books
    More books
    Rules
     
  7. mosportsmen
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    Location: Kirksville, MO

    mosportsmen Junior Member

    I know I need to do a lot more study on sailing and building sailboats. I have done a lot of study on building this little boat. It is pretty funny to design and build a sail rig for a boat and then take it out and attempt to learn how to sail a little boat.....but esensially that is what I want to do......I won't be attempting any sailing till next summer when I will have no problem getting wet...the water temp is starting to drop in this part of the country.

    I am looking at plans like this

    canoe rig

    and here

    photos

    The mast step in these photos is pretty far forward. Would it be not a good idea to put it back further? If I put it back further I supose it would require a little mote "true sailboat" design? maybe?
     
  8. Skippy
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: cornfields

    Skippy Senior Member

    Yes, that mast right at the bow looks way more forward than it should be. If the next convenient mast support point is a lot farther aft, you might want to consider a lateen rig like on a Sunfish.
     
  9. mosportsmen
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    mosportsmen Junior Member

    Sunfish......!

    Yes, that is what I am thinking of when I think of a small piddle around and learn to sail, boat. It just so happens that a friend I just finished talking to just explained to me what the heck a lateen sail is. He was thinking it would be a good way to go also.

    So where I sit now in my construction project a mast base built into my front seat would be workable?.........think? I can come up with the details for keel/keels, rudder/rudders, mast hight, boom length later.
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Sailing is pretty intuitive stuff and very easy to get the hang of. Doing it well enough to beat others, in similar boats during a race, is another story, which takes lots of practice.

    Basically, you can stick your mast anywhere you want, though well forward affords you the most area inside the boat and makes balancing the rig the easiest.

    The trick is to balance the underwater areas with the sail so that you get just enough helm feel to steer, but not so much that the rudder acts as a brake. A removable rig and appendage is very common in this type of setup. Get the book, man, it has this stuff in it.

    You'll learn nothing by sailing a self designed, out of balance rig. You'll not know what leehelm or excessive weather helm is and have no idea how to, or if you should correct the issues as they come up (they will, trust me) This is because you don't know how to sail or understand the concepts. Copy one of the small rigs out of the book and you can increase size as you gain experience and knowledge.

    Without a whole bunch of additional information about your boat, placing a rig and appendage is imposable. Taking a guess is what you do when you pick lotto numbers. Is this what you want for your rig?
     

  11. mosportsmen
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    Location: Kirksville, MO

    mosportsmen Junior Member

    I will get the book, looks like a good winter read. I really wouldn't need to build the mast step into the front seat then. I would have quite a bit of freedom with location between the bow and the front seat on the floor. I guess I just wanted to hear that it was a great idea.....truth is, it would slow my progress right now on a boat I want to get into ASAP.

    Another problem I have is i like this boat building so much i will probably build another one before long anyway. Maybe the next will be a sail boat. I like the idea of building it so it can do several different things. The two primary things I want it for are hunting and fishing. I have a 9 year old boy though and I figure sailing is something he would like to learn and add to his and my life skills list. I have experienced the thrill of the silent speed of sailing. Silent speed in something you built yourself is probably that much better.

    Sounds like I had better hold off for now. This will give me a good project for next spring.
     
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