Why don't lots more people sail multis..???

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by buzzman, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    As I've said previously, the proa is the "dark side" of multihulls and is not therefore a suitable choice to get more people into multis.

    You want the Proa Thread... :)
  2. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    That is why I am not talking about what 'I want,' but about what 'might' work to get people in the water.

  3. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    The problem with a racing/cruising cat or tri is that the one defeats the intent of the other.

    A racing boat must be light to be competitive - adding cruising equipment (pod cabin, internal furniture etc) adds weight and detracts from speed.

    A Cruiser/racer *class* that specified a minimum weight that allowed for such cruising fitments might be an idea....

    Frankly, I think there are plenty of racing cat designs in the affordable classes from Hobie to A-Classes, none of which would be suited to having a pod cab added.

    A small folding trimaran combines the utility of the typical monohull trailer sailer (small cabin for sleeping, cooking, containing the porta potti, getting out of the weather) with the much greater beam (for stability and ease of motion) with the ability to sail faster than any mono TS.

    The trade-off is the extra hulls and extra costs required to achieve that. For example, the mast and rig for a cat or tri have to be proportionally stronger than the rig for a similar length mono TS, never mind the extra hull(s).

    The trick, I believe, is in convincing enogh people that the extra speed, stability, space is worth the extra cash.

    And as long-established players like Ian Farrier are now moving into the production yacht arena, with his F-22 for example, it tends to support the "we want it now" argument others have espoused.

    The problem for me, and I suspect for most people contemplating a recreational sailboat, is the cost. A second hand F22 would cost around $40-50K.

    A second hand 22-ft mono TS could be had for less than $15K, with good sails rigged and ready to go.

    Hence why my suggestion is to build only the main hull and use beach cat hulls and rig for the amas. Something like Richard Wood's Strike 16 but with a better shaped main hull.

    I reckon Dr Frank's 24-fter downsized to 18ft or 20ft, so it could utilise a set of beach cat hulls would be an option.

    Even the foam shaping required could be simplified by adding a central 'keel' spine, perhaps with an additional spine either side of this, half way to the sheer, shaped to suit the eventual profile desired.

    The spaces in between could then be filled with foam and a hot wire used to shape it, resting on the ply spines as a guide.

    Coupla layers of 400gsm and epoxy and it's done.

    Or we need to find someone entrepreneurial enough to make the hull moulding and market such a boat as a kit, so buyers could purchase which elements they could not otherwise source for themselves.

    Bit like the principle of the kitcar, using a donor car and adding flash bodywork and/or bigger motor.
  4. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

  5. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Yeah, that's Richard's Strike 18 in amongs all those other small tris.

    Seen that page before. Some excellent options there for racing boats or open day-sailers, but only the Strike really fulfills the "alternative to a mono TS" criteria.

    No offence to Richard, but the shape is really boring...if not actually ugly. Sure, as he himself says, it was specifically desinged this way to make it simple for an amateur builder. Less compound shapes, all flat panels...but it looks more like an 'origami sculpture' than a boat IMVHO...

    But the *principle* of the design is EXCELLENT.

    Easy to build, using beach cat hulls for amas (at least in the Strike 16, not the 18 alas) and with option of open day sailer, cuddy cab for minimal weather protection, and a full sitting headroom cabin.

    Using the beach cat donor's mast and rig, it will never be as fast as it *could* be, but as I said a few posts back, this could form the basis for a Junior Class, while the Seniors could opt to upgrade the mast and sails for additional performance.

    The cost of this could be kept down by using a stock (readily available) mast and/or sails - for example, utilising the rig of a larger racing cat like an A-Class, of which second hand examples do come up as cat racers upgrade from ally to carbon.

    And many sail lofts have patterns for A-class sails, so they shold be relatively cost-effective to purchase, even new.

    Although, again, a half-decent set of A-Class sails could be found 2nd hand as a cat racer upgrades to lighter and/or flatter cut sails.

    Of course, a Strike 18 with a set of C-Class hulls and A-class sails is never going to perorm quite as well as an A-class racer...but it will run rings around all the monohull TS fleets of the world.

    If Richard were to update his Strike to a multi-chine desing like Ray Kendricks it could be a definite option.
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Or, if he were to update his a little and someone took up to offer it as a 'kit.'

    Then the more complex requirements could be done by the shop, and the home builder could finish the rest.

    Could drastically reduce overall build time. The hulls could be left as quick stitch and clue, or even they could be rough finished for the home builder.

    The overall material and labor costs for the production builder would not be significantly different from a mono-hull.

    The owner-builder would have better 'resail' value - cute pun?

    And I think a better overall boat.

    I wouldn't mind seeing that and a slightly larger sango in semi-production. With two options for swinging out the hulls ....
  7. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    That would be ideal, but the general prejudice against ply hulls indicates it would be more likely to be successful if an existing boat builder with fibreglass moulding skills took it on and moulded the hull.

    Even if it was sold as a bare hull requiring finishing, as part of a kit, it would be significantly quicker than a full build, although not cheaper, as the builder's profit margin would add to the cost.

    I've often wondered why no-one has designed a cat that folded longitudinally, like a set of parallel rulers, with beams hinged at the inside edge of both hulls.

    I'm guessing the principal problem is stiffness, and the need to build a much stronger (ie: heavier) beam to maintain the stiffness of a lighter, fixed beam.

    Or a parallel sliding beam, with a rigid central support for the mast base and detachable cable tensioners underneath, enabling both hulls to be slid towards each other, thereby reducing the beam enough to trail legally.

    Neither would be suitable for a weekender 'alternative to a mono TS' as the inability to build in a central pod cabin would limit the accomm to that of an open deck racer.
  8. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    I am disappointed that no one so far has mentioned Lock Crowthers Buccaneer 24.
    It has all the attributes of a fast cruising 24 ft boat, but is no slouch on the racing circuit, even though it was designed as a simple pocket cruiser.
    Admittedly it is not folding, but is demountable for trailing.
    It sleeps 3 in comfort, has a big dry cockpit, galley, toilet and storage space.
    It's design is easily adaptable to Foam/Glass construction, either moulded in round bilge, or flat foam/glass panels in the original chine bottom configuration.
    It is a good looking boat and a proven design, which is still very "Modern" in appearance.
    Has a remarkable safety record,and many are still sailing today.
  9. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    What took YOU so long?

  10. peterAustralia
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    peterAustralia Senior Member

    I am going to sound a bit self promoting here,,, however i can handle any aggravation

    one thing that is not mentioned is interior space. Most people that want more than a dingy or a beach cat want a cabin where they can have a meal, have a coffee, have a snooze, all in comfort. With a multihull, the long narrow hulls mean that the boat has to be big to get that sort of boat, 18ft trimaran would be minimum. Even then, how much interior space is there in one of those?

    If ,,,, and its a big if,, your willing to go midway in performance between a mono and a multi, you can get more interior space.... So a mulitihull sailer/designer would say such a vessel is slow and a dog (which is a fair criticism). The monohull sailer would say it is fast. Here is what I came up with. Sorry once again for the self promotion, i think i have mentioned it before. Compare this with the interior of say a tremolino trimaran, much more interior space,,, much slower it is true though. Please note I have sailed a few ballasted monohulls, 13ft, 18ft and 26ft , they all tend to go to around 4 to 5 knots tops, if your lucky you might hit 6 knots but that is really pushing it

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  11. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    No-one has mentioned the Bucc 24 for the simple reason it is, as you point out, not a folder.

    Now if bruceb could find the time to finish designing the folding mechanism he's been experimenting with, we might have a very serious contender on out hands!

    Except that it still requires the float hulls to be built from scrathc, whihc will not be as cheap as utilising a ready made pair of beach cat hulls, and that spec in turn means that a main hull lnegth of 20-ft is about the max, in terms of relative availability of second hand hulls.

    I frequently see A-Class hulls for less than AUS$1500, and I doubt you could build them for that, never mind the time it would take to do so.

    Beach cats are most popular in the 14ft size (2nd hand) with 16ft the next most popular, and 18 and 20ft less often coming to the market.

    The 14ft Paper Tiger; Surfcat/Windrush are probably the best looking hulls in the smaller group, with the Mosquito and Arrow in the 16ft, Tornado and others in the C and A-classes.

    You'd still need to rip the lid off the floats and reinforce the beam attachment areas, but thius would be relatively easy compared to building the entire hull.
  12. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    There are a lot of planing ballasted monohull trailer sailors around, for example look up the Elliot 7m. And they make a good basic weekender for two.

    Those sorts of ballasted monohull trailer sailors easily add 10 knots to those speeds. I'm just pointing out that your figures are a bit out.
  13. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    True. But they are not a multihull, and that is the purpose and objective of this thread.
  14. warwick
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    warwick Senior Member

  15. CraigDC
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    CraigDC New Member

    Mac 36

    Not completely off topic because I'm trying to acquire a multi-hull, preferably a cat, but the true "cruisers" are very expensive.
    The Mac 36, on the other hand is "affordable", which is why I'm considering purchasing one as an island hopper and ultra-light cruiser to go from California to Hawaii and the South Pacific.
    I have posted this question on other blogs and I have received primarily "subjective" responses. As a somewhat anal/stubborn engineer, I would REALLY appreciate objective responses that cite specific structural limitations that prohibit the Mac 36 from fulfilling this role.
    I would prefer to hear from people who are very familiar with the Mac 36, in particular Pat McGrath, whose review of the Mac36 I found online.
    Given that I would be sailing in the tropics, I believe the large open deck of the Mac 36 provides much more desirable living/sleeping space. It's likely to be too hot to sleep in the hulls of any cat (been there, done that).
    I would prefer more room in the hulls, but given the other options in this price range (i.e., Wharrams), I think the Mac 36 is a much more desirable option because of it's performance, low draft, lower maintenance and weight (not to mention it won't sink).


    PS to Pat: Did Roger MacGregor mention anything about taking a Mac 36 into blue water? It is rated Cat B.
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