what was wrong exactly with design of old sailing "ships"?

[Squidly-Diddly]

Given their purpose and SOR, compared to modern designs. Underwater hull doesn't look too bad.
Are they just under-powered and overly cautious and overbuilt by today's standards due to materials as well as lack of radio and Coast Guard and good life boats?
Asking because they look like they'd make a nice "floating condo" type sail boat/motor-sailor. With 20ft beam in theory you could park even a big van on deck.
If there was something wrong with design, any clues as to why they were that way?
Any mono sail boat designs that would be better as Floating Condo, but with a track record of ocean crossings?
I'm kinda liking the old style masts and spars for Floating Condo because seems like they'd make it easy to rig a big awning over everything, and maybe even an elevated trampoline, maybe even 2 stories of such.

 

[bajansailor]

I think that they probably subscribed to the 'cod's head and mackeral tail' type of hull form that was all the rage back then.
Re under-powered, the vessel shown in your attachment looks like she can set a fair bit of canvas off the wind, but she might typically sail at 70 or 80 degrees to the wind (or worse) when trying to sail close hauled.
Re over-built, they had to build these vessels massively, as everything was just bolted or nailed together, with lots of caulking in the seams - no suitable glues were available then.

Any mono sail boat designs that would be better as Floating Condo, but with a track record of ocean crossings?

I think that any modern motor sailer type of vessel around 60' - 80' in length (and approx 20' beam) would be infinitely better as a floating condo.
Could you elaborate a bit more please on the SOR for the floating condo?

I just googled 'tall ships for sale', and a motley collection of different vessels came up - here is the link.
Tall Ships for sale, used boats, new boat sales. Free photo ads - Apollo Duck https://www.apolloduck.com/boats-for-sale/tall-ships

 

[Tiny Turnip]

Having just has a wonderful holiday on a 115ft 120 year old 90 ton trading ketch, a couple of off the cuff subjective views.
Pros: seaworthy,
Cons: not very fast, not great at pointing, hard work, complex, high maintenance, dangerous.
I had a brilliant time, but I'm glad I don't own the ship!

 

[bajansailor]

@Tiny Turnip which vessel was she please?
I am guessing maybe Bessie Ellen?
Tall Ship Sailing Holidays on Bessie Ellen in the Scottish Isles and Cornwall https://bessie-ellen.com/

 

[Tiny Turnip]

@Tiny Turnip which vessel was she please?
I am guessing maybe Bessie Ellen?
Tall Ship Sailing Holidays on Bessie Ellen in the Scottish Isles and Cornwall https://bessie-ellen.com/

Hi Martin - yes, Bessie Ellen indeed. A big rufty tufty vessel, with comfortable accommodation in what was the hold, and great food and great crew. It was an excellent trip, and a real kick helming in a f7+, but the consequences of making a mistake, like accidentally gybing, did make it stressful at times! That and working out which of the 25 identical brown ropes you needed to pull *right now!*

 

[Skyak]

Given their purpose and SOR, compared to modern designs. Underwater hull doesn't look too bad.
Are they just under-powered and overly cautious and overbuilt by today's standards due to materials as well as lack of radio and Coast Guard and good life boats?
Asking because they look like they'd make a nice "floating condo" type sail boat/motor-sailor. With 20ft beam in theory you could park even a big van on deck.
If there was something wrong with design, any clues as to why they were that way?
Any mono sail boat designs that would be better as Floating Condo, but with a track record of ocean crossings?
I'm kinda liking the old style masts and spars for Floating Condo because seems like they'd make it easy to rig a big awning over everything, and maybe even an elevated trampoline, maybe even 2 stories of such.

Define "wrong". The designs are a product of their time. The cost of wonderful trees was near zero back then -compare that to now. The cost and more importantly work rules of modern labor are pretty incompatible as well. How much would you be willing to pay a worker with the skills for this job? All modern boats cost less/performance and accommodation.
Look up "sail cargo" channel on YT to see what it is like building one today.
Find a place with lots of forest and little government and a few million dollars can make you a boat in 5 + years.

 

[Rumars]

Everything that's "wrong" from our perspective, is an artefact of the time. Scantlings are heavy because they mostly used trunnels, and even their iron was not so great. Stability was determined by their use of inside ballast (rocks) wich also influenced the underwater shape. Above the water the castles were for archers, and the tumbleholm for gaining stability. The rig was up to their knowledge and materials.
Unless you desire a historically correct replica most of those "problems" can be addressed.

 

[bajansailor]

Find a place with lots of forest and little government and a few million dollars can make you a boat in 5 + years.

This is the basic philosophy of these folk (although I don't think they have millions of dollars) - they are building a traditional wooden square rigged cargo vessel in the forest in Costa Rica.
SAILCARGO INC. — Sea Clean Power https://www.sailcargo.inc/

A BBC article about Ceiba -
The futuristic cargo ship made of wood https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201117-clean-shipping-the-carbon-negative-cargo-boats-made-of-wood

And an interview with Ceiba's founder -
A timber cargo ship could sail entire oceans without fossil fuels https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/cargo-ship-without-fossil-fuels

In complete contrast, we also now have vessels like Grain de Sail - 22 metres long, with a cargo capacity of 50 tonnes, built of aluminium, with a modern schooner rig - and she is working well under sail.
Grain de sail https://graindesail.com/en/

So much so that her owners are now building a bigger vessel, with a cargo capacity of 350 tonnes -
GRAIN DE SAIL SIGNS WITH PIRIOU FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF ITS NEXT CARGO SAILBOAT "GRAIN DE SAIL 2" - Piriou https://www.piriou.com/en/grain-de-sail-signs-with-piriou-for-the-construction-of-its-next-cargo-sailboat-grain-de-sail-2/

 

[Squidly-Diddly]

Everything that's "wrong" from our perspective, is an artefact of the time. Scantlings are heavy because they mostly used trunnels, and even their iron was not so great. Stability was determined by their use of inside ballast (rocks) wich also influenced the underwater shape. Above the water the castles were for archers, and the tumbleholm for gaining stability. The rig was up to their knowledge and materials.
Unless you desire a historically correct replica most of those "problems" can be addressed.

I'm thinking general layout of a ship as pictured could also be about perfect for Live Aboard Floating Condo (but still seaworthy). Elevated superstructure fore and aft for two separated apts/cabins for adults/kids, home/office, work shop/office etc, separated by big wide common deck around main mast for awnings, crane, tramps, hammocks, etc. Big open "gun deck" under main deck, and big wide lower deck for machines and ballast and tanks. My understanding was superstructure in front was also to handle waves and structure at stern was bigger and taller so when all hell broke loose is a storm at least you'd be pointed into the wind and waves.

About the only design change (besides modern materials and engine etc) might be addition of lee boards to help upwind sailing and reduce rolling and maybe even dual use as gang planks.

 

[Squidly-Diddly]

In complete contrast, we also now have vessels like Grain de Sail - 22 metres long, with a cargo capacity of 50 tonnes, built of aluminium, with a modern schooner rig - and she is working well under sail.
Grain de sail https://graindesail.com/en/

yipes, my wine snobs tell me "wine does not travel well" with either motion or temp changes and check weather reports before shipping on trains etc so it doesn't get caught in the heat.

The coffee and cocoa beans will probably be OK.

 

[bajansailor]

yipes, my wine snobs tell me "wine does not travel well" with either motion or temp changes

One reason why I only ever buy 'cheap' (relatively - the cheapest is about US$10 a bottle) bottles of wine here, as it is all imported, in standard containers (not reefers), and it must get fairly well cooked inside these, especially if the container is stowed on deck, and is in the sun.

Edit @Squidly-Diddly re your SOR for a liveaboard floating condo, I think that one of Jay Benford's Florida Bay Coasters would win hands down, especially in comparison to a galleon. OK, it might not be well suited for a sailing rig, but you could probably put some basic steadying sails on it.
Florida Bay Coasters https://floridabaycoasters.com/

 

[Squidly-Diddly]

One reason why I only ever buy 'cheap' (relatively - the cheapest is about US$10 a bottle) bottles of wine here, as it is all imported, in standard containers (not reefers), and it must get fairly well cooked inside these, especially if the container is stowed on deck, and is in the sun.

Edit @Squidly-Diddly re your SOR for a liveaboard floating condo, I think that one of Jay Benford's Florida Bay Coasters would win hands down, especially in comparison to a galleon. OK, it might not be well suited for a sailing rig, but you could probably put some basic steadying sails on it.

My wine experts tell me that if choice is between 'cheap' bottled wine that has likely been damaged and mass market "box wine", the box wine is generally the better choice. Something about the tech of the box mitigates damage to wine better.

Part of my SOR would be ability to sail across oceans, for Bug Out in case of Zombie or Commie outbreak, or just cruising. It occurs to me survival rate of "Boat People" fleeing Communism was over 90% even with small low tech fishing boats, where as I'm pretty sure no one was finding any hold-outs even 6 months after a takeover. I'm also thinking the big mostly wide open central deck would make things more livable, as well as ability to store an automobile on deck and hopefully roll-on, roll-off with gang-planks. Plus possibility for big trampoline for extra space, maybe itself topped with tent to make it "living space".

 

[rnlock]

Did anyone else notice the wind up key on top of the Florida Bay Coaster in the picture? I should think a spring steel motor would put severe limits on speed and range, plus require crew who were VERY strong and tough. ;-)

Personally, I find a "Commie outbreak" about as likely as an outbreak of Zombies. Perhaps something that was falsely labelled "Commie" may be far more likely, since it's easy to call almost anything "Commie". There's a long history of people doing that.

On a sailing vessel, I think better upwind ability would increase safety and require less refined judgement of the captain. I think building a fore and aft rig with modern materials would be so much simpler that it would be less work to build one of those and a giant awning. Upwind ability would, of course, depend on having a large enough keel, centerboard, daggerboard or whatever.

When I read "floating condo", it's hard not to imagine Bolger's Superbrick. SuperBrick Challenge https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/articles/superbrick/index.htm Someone is building one that appears to be mostly complete, but I can't find the pictures on the net just now. I had a regular Brick at one time, and it went upwind reasonably well, so I'd have no worries on that point, as long as the board had enough area. (The daggerboard on a normal Brick is quite large.) OTOH, I have no idea how seaworthy one would be. The bigger the better, I suppose. A schooner rig might be a little easier on the crew once the boat gets very large. I think it might be worthwhile, though, to use a slightly more complicated shape. Something like a fat AS29:
AS2906 https://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/2674436267/in/photostream/

 

[catahoula]

bajansailor- thanks for those links about Grain de Sail. I was always baffled by the SailCargo project; as cool as it is I don't understand why one wouldn't want to take advantage of the last 100+ years of sailing technology when trying to prove the validity of sail transport. Just the crew requirements alone for the old style rig are insane. But I appreciate the renewable aspect of the construction, for sure.

 

[gonzo]

In the early 1900's steam and diesel engines started taking over as a source of ship power. The old sail cargo ships had their rigs cut short and were used for local coastal trading or as floating storage. Even at that time, with inefficient engines, the cost of a crew was too expensive.