what is the most popular domestic hardwood (US) for cold molding

i know you have a wealth of timber choices that we dont have
in europe boatskin larch is a cheap good standard,
poplar is not approved,
you want a light fast hull
id use larch for cost,
or cedar
we built 2, 72ft ketches of strip planked w r cedar

 

aarrrgg this decision is such a pain in the ***

I wonder how walnut would stack up its not as cheap but its got great durability and its dam stable once dried thing is its heavy

cedar does not do well as a cold molding material because it tends to "pucker" when infiltrated by water
pin holes swell the wood beneath and even the smallest of holes can end up looking like hail damage in reverse

B

I will undoubtedly end up not using poplar purely based on the consensus view but its not making much sense when the stuff is going to be impregnated with epoxy anyway

Fir also is not happening as after about 30 years of working with all grades of the stuff I am simply not impressed.

Mark
a resent study by the university of missouri I think it was found that a Dougy is the most likely wood to warp cup and bow of any of the domestic woods
specifically they concluded that you were more likely to get a straight piece if you cut it crooked first and then hope it dried straight than if you cut it straight and hoped it would stay that way
one reason its used green so often is because of the extreme waste in the drying process

B

 

The reason Douglas Fir is used green so often is because it can be used green, not because it has to be. It dries in place with less shrinkage and less warping than most woods. So there's no point in wasting time and money seasoning it--particularly when doing so just makes it harder to cut and nail. In green DF the nails go straight in; in seasoned DF they try to follow the grain.

Boston, you're going to have to show me that Missouri study. I can't find any reference to it online; it doesn't match any of the information I can find online; and it certainly doesn't match my personal experience using it for years.

Yes, I've seen sticks of DF turn into the pretzels in the sun, if not properly stacked and shaded. The same thing would happen to any wood that is shipped green, then exposed to the same conditions.

Douglas Fir is unique among all softwood species in that it is naturally dimensionally stable, having the ability to season well in position. Many builders prefer to cut, nail and fasten Douglas Fir in the "green" or unseasoned condition, allowing it to air dry during construction. As a result, coastal Douglas Fir structural lumber is often shipped unseasoned (indicated by S-GRN on the grade stamp). Framing lumber 2 inches and less (nominal size) in thickness can be shipped after seasoning to a moisture content of 19 percent or less, which is indicated by S-DRY, KD or KD-HT on the grade stamp. S-DRY can mean kiln dried or air seasoned, while KD and KD-HT specifically mean kiln dried. Regional market conditions and building trade preferences dictate local availability of dry or green products.

For millwork, remanufacturing applications or glued products, Douglas Fir is dried in temperature and humidity-controlled kilns or stacked and air dried until its moisture content (MC) reaches the desired level for an intended purpose.

http://www2.wwpa.org/SPECIESPRODUCTS/DouglasFir/tabid/405/Default.aspx#mc

Douglas fir dries easily and rapidly, with little tendency to check and with good dimensional stability. The wood is hard, strong, straight-grained and seasons well.

http://www.canfor.com/products/wood/species.asp

That dimensional stability is also why it's used for doors, door jambs and other millwork so often: it gains and loses moisture slowly once it's seasoned. So it shrinks less in dry weather and swells less in damp weather, with less warping.

 

Poplar is nice to work with. No surprise, clean and stable.
Not very sure about the rot prone, but well protected with good oil paint why not?
By the way, nice research on wood.
You are quite thorough Boston.
Daniel

 

Hi know poplar is on the hard wood category, but I never felt that way, it is so easy to work with, to bend and all sort of thing.
But this is a very expensive boat every way you look at, I will not try to save on wood quality for the hull.
I will go, for this size of boat, for the best money can buy.
It is a very high number of hours you will put on this boat, you don't want to be disapointed after you worked on for many years, because you tried to save $5,000 or even $10,000 of wood cost.
Save on systems, electronics and futilities, not on wood.
My two cents
Daniel

 

In terms of using a wood to cold-mold or strip, anytime epoxy is also used I'd also suggest quarter-sawn spruce. Spruce is one of the most difficult woods to split for firewood, at least the spruce I chop. This matters when it comes to using it for cold-molding or stripping. Why not a wood with the kind of strength to weight that makes it a top choice for paddles, oars, masts, and on and on?
i'm not suggesting spruce is ideal for every laminated hull but when I think of poplar (which I've used extensively for cabinetry), I wonder (or see) why nobdy uses it for masts, for example. It may have an equal rot resistance to spruce, but spruce is absolutely superior in terms of resistance to fracturing, for example, and resistance to splitting.
When weight and strength are issues, NOBODY in their right mind would choose a laminated poplar mast if spruce were available! This should tell us something. And it's not as if spruce is expensive.

 

Im glad we could find something to agree on Alan
of all the coniferous tree species spruce in the one I do have some respect for
sitka engleman and the like are superb woods to work with for a number of reasons
they are however very expensive
while it is not a hardwood it is a material I should definitely consider

Tad was good enough to point out that the cost for this relatively small are of the budget yet critical area of the build is not something I should be primarily concerned about
I find myself compelled to agree although cost is what has driven many considerations thus far

my many years of experience with the fir family of woods has led me to absolutely detest the stuff

I will plug a few of the spruces into the equation and see how they do

Dskira
thanks for your attention
this decision is not being taken lightly and although money is a concern it is not of primary concern when it comes to the hull material

even the trim wood is carefully chosen for its look and longevity in the marine environment
cherry and black walnut both have excellent rot resistance
I plan on making this thing to the highest possible standard and as such I have sought the advice of some really qualified people
mostly right here on boat design net
so all is greatly appreciated

my vast experience in building has led me to the realization that no man is an island.
in order to really do the best job possible on this build and have it turn out right the first time can best be accomplished with the input and careful consideration of numerous people

I genuinely thank all of you for your help

B

 

Here is some info on spruce. http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/wood/timber_list.htm

http://www.connectedlines.com/wood/wood27.htm

 

ya I will need to dedicate several hours to incorporating the data for spruce into my study
I also need to call my contact for sitka and establish the going price these days on that grade of stock
mast and spar quality is high
about $6 bucks a foot if I remember
but I may be mistaken

 

Eastern white spruce, old growth, hopefully obtained from the sawyer green, quarter-sawn, straight grain from big trees, good stuff.

 

Bos. didn't you buy a ton of white oak? Use that. Great wood.

 

I have a about 2000' of white oak
its kinda heavy and does not glue well with epoxies although its other characteristics are excellent
and it costs me about $1.50 a foot these days

I want to try and keep this thing as light as possible and the white oak will come in handy yes
but not for the hull veneers

 

If you are going to put on two or three layers of cold mold the first and the second should be marine plywood or at least X leaving only the final layer to be a solid veneer and it can be thin. 3/32 or 3/16 will be fine just size your ply layers to get thickness required. Strongest hull I know of. PS if there is enough ply layers under you could use vinyl siding as a top coat. Comes pre-painted.

 

turns out engleman spruce is a perishable wood
non durable
and substantially weaker than some other considerations lb/lb

leaves me right back to were I started from

Ill still check the price come monday as in my wood biz I typically dont sell the softwoods or ply

 

I was testing your since of humor. A final thin layer of red cedar which is very rot resistent would give you a smooth surface for paint. soft though