what i do

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by sergewithadream, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. GTO
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    GTO Senior Member

    Would it be possible to strip everything of value off the boat (lead ballast, prop, sails, etc.), sell it all, and buy a boat in better condition?

    Here in the US, the value of the lead ballast alone would come close providing enough money to buy a used boat in better condition.

    PAR, for educational purposes, could you point out the signs of hogging in the pictures Serge provided? I've been trying to identify it but I admit I don't see it. Which is no surprise! Thanks.
     
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Plank seams and sheer sweep are visibly drooping in the second photo and something I would expects from a yacht in this condition.
     
  3. GTO
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    GTO Senior Member

    Okay, I felt the sheer didn't look quite right but put it down as an optical effect. Thanks for pointing that out.

    I'm curious though, I thought hogging afflicted larger sailing ships, like the clippers and such.
    Is it broken frames that causes it in small boats?
     
  4. Ramona
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    Ramona Senior Member

    Well obviously it needs caulking, that's why I suggested UTube to see and learn how its done. Very few experts about now and very few surveyors would even have much experience. There is an old movie about called "Build me Straight", probably find the link if you search at http://www.ybw.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17. This gives a good view of caulking etc. But I would suggest one of the dedicated boat restoration sites for further education.

    I have no idea what you paid for this yacht Serge but I would expect a surveyors costs to be about 4 times the value. Be cautious.
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Hogging is a complex issue most of the time. It's caused by a combination of things. Broken structural elements, the shape of the boat, the style of the boat, building method, etc. all have a bearing on this problem. Boats with a high percentage of overhangs for their length are more prone to it then plumb ended boats, but not exclusively. Only careful examination can reveal the causes on any individual yacht or ship. Even a 16' trailer queen can hog, just from spending too long on a poorly fitting trailer. In most cases this will be a hook at first, but eventually can develop into worse.
     
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    We aren't all dead yet Ramona. The local marina will have a few names they can trust for this sort of work. Insurance companies are a good source too.
     
  7. sergewithadream
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Location: melbourne australia

    sergewithadream Junior Member

    PAR thank you very much for not enswering Gto,s 1st question about destroying my butyfull old boat
    i would buy a other one in same condition again, a 60-100ft Schooner from below 30s with no advice again:)
    and i will one day for sure,
    i belive all true wooden boat lovers will agree , we must keep this boats alive is our duty is our past
    she is almost as old as my new adopted butyfull country
    and i will sail her down my mediterranean with her old Australian flag hanging on the very top with pride
    she will most likley be named Adalaide 1933

    i don't mind if it goes over some market value
    is like a kid now, is yous no metter what ...
     
  8. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    You can easily see she has hogged if you look at the stb profile pic, put your eye to the screen on the left side and look along the sheer, it is no optical illusion...
     
  9. sergewithadream
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    sergewithadream Junior Member

    can it it be refastened
    or add more fasteners
    IS possible for it be be hogged but still solid and working,
    is it possible that is just that the wood has dried
     
  10. sergewithadream
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Location: melbourne australia

    sergewithadream Junior Member

    hey romana thanks
    i have seem lots of web site and vidios on utube
    pleople seem to fix and rebuild boats that look in a much more demage than her
    i paid AU$5000

    landlubber sheer looks straight
     
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Serge, not to rain on your parade, not to discourage you, I understand your motivation and passion. (I bought and restored 12 old workhorses, mainly steamships through the decades)

    BUT...
    ...you are not talking about some amount "above market value", you are involved in something far above replacement cost, read: newbuilt!
    Maybe I´m wrong, but as far as I can guess from the pictures, she is almost gone. And at 80% my guessing comes out close to reality. (PAR will have a better percentage, though)

    With the wealthy assistance of governemental funds, to preserve some examples of national or technical heritage, as it was in my case, the task may be to bear. Although in the end always more than half of the cost was covered by donations and, yes, my own wallet.

    So, be sure I understand what is driving you.

    The question is: do you understand what you are in for?
    Lookup the price for a similar new build boat (wooden), thats your cost estimation, at least.
    Then check if you have the thousands of manhours it will cost you! Do not forget you need twice the time of a newbuilt for restoring!!!

    When you feel still comfortable after checking these points, GO for it!
    The world needs insane people like you and me to keep some of these old boats. (but I am out of that game since ten years)

    Though I have my doubts about the age! I guess she is from the 50ies rather than the 30ies.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  12. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Serge, I don't know the extent of her issues, without having a better look at her structure. From what I can see, I wouldn't want to touch her without a large down payment, which is contrary to my usual course.

    Typically in a case like this I spend several months slowly working her back into the shape she's supposed to have. Once I can insure she's the right shape, I replace broken frames, stringers, etc. After the internals are straightened out, the planking is replaced where necessary. Yours looks to be shot below the LWL (at least). Planking is a consumable product, intended to be replaced after so may years. Bottom planking and garboards especially are replaced at a more frequent interval. You can't save it, it's just worn out, so you pull it off and with luck you can use them as templates for the new ones.

    I wouldn't trust anything you see on U-Tube. One guy's video of an incorrect method can screw up months of work. One bonehead's idea of a miracle goo in a bottle can destroy hundreds of hours of work and cost you hundreds more hours fixing it, not counting materials ruined.

    Fortunately with this yacht you have limited options, because of how it's built. No miracle goo's in a can or fancy modern whatever is going to come to the rescue. The work is timeless and well documented in many books. Repairs like these have been done for hundreds of years, though 100 years ago they would have burned the boat, recovered the metals and built a new one just like it, rather then fix this one.

    I repair and restore boats all the time and I'd probably not want to play with yours, unless, like I mentioned, it had some special significance, making her worth while.

    About the money. Without a doubt, you'll spend at least twice as much restoring her to new, then building a brand new version of her. It's a lot more time, cost and trouble fixing things then cutting and assembling new things.

    I think it's possible she may be from the 30's, but I'm not sure, because she has conflicting visual clues. Her propeller aperture looks more modern, but the standing rig arrangements (deadeye channels) look turn of the century. This may have been a change by one of the owners to get a better purchase angle on the shrouds and evidence of this will exist on the hull some place, like plugged chainplate holes.

    I'm not trying to disrespect your boat, but I'm also not trying to sugar coat anything either. In her day she was a pretty thing. As for how bad off she is, again I can't tell with these images. You can guarantee she's got rot in her, bad previous repairs and other "ills", besides age or damage related issues. Just dealing with her deadwood (you'll need some repairs there too) is enough to make most want to burn her, but a loving owner could bring her back with enough time and money.

    Get her covered, completely emptied and release the old gal's burden of carrying that ballast casting. You'll need to get at those timbers any way.
     
  13. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    You are quite restrained with your assumptions PAR, unusual.

    By no means I have your expertise, skills and experience when it comes to boat restoration (maybe I can beat you on steamships), but just from the few pictures we have here, I can tell you some issues.

    The deck leaks
    The hull / house transition leaks, has rot
    The hull / deck transition leaks, has rot
    The gunwale has issues
    The mastfoot has issues
    Most of the planking is gone
    Deadwood is gone
    Chainplate fasteners caused issues
    Half of the plank fasteners are loose or waggled too big holes in the frames
    The ballast fastening bolts have issues
    Some frames are broken
    The complete propulsion is shot
    The wardrobe is shroud

    Well, many of them are just wild guesses, true. But those have almost always hit the nail. (80% I said)

    Not to mention the hundred points I did not mention, or have forgotten.

    I agree in general on your comment though.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  14. peter radclyffe
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    Serge you can ask Richard at Blakes Boats , Melbourne to look at her, he's a sound man
     

  15. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Cinq mille? C'est incroyable. Faites un appel a les policiers.

    Talk to the guy M. Radclyffe recommended. Listen to him.

    All of us in the sailing world want you to be happy and enjoy being a part of it. It takes a brave man to buy a boat that needs love and repair work. It takes a braver man to put one out of it's misery and stop the bleeding before it is fatal for both of you.

    You've learned a $5 thousand dollar lesson. Don't make it a $20K lesson. You'll end up in the same place. For less than it will cost to repair your old girl you can buy a great used boat. Talk to this guy Richard - he'll point you in the right direction.

    --
    Bill
     
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