what does a Lloyds classification mean anyway?.

Discussion in 'Class Societies' started by tugboat, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    ok i am very new at understasnding the classification societies and what it means when a product is "Lloyds approved"?

    anyone out there willing to fill me in?...I know that it means you can get insurance i suppose...but does this mean that a "approved" product can be used in any application?.i.e. hulls? etc

    please start from the beginning..i know nothing about class societies...despite having read some threads here, im still in the dark..
     
  2. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Here is the simplified answer.

    If you by a car..say a Ford…and the brakes fail…do you fit a Ford product to it..or one made down the road by Joe Bloggs?..taking that one stage further. If you buy a car..with no name/badge…what do you call it..and how do you know which parts are best for it and if one type of part is better or worse than another, and where do you get the advice too?

    If a boat is LR approved, it comes with the seal of approval. What you need to do, is look at the Class certificate..what does the approval cert include?...since you can have…just the structure…up to everything. If it is everything…then like the Ford, every single item that goes into the boat must in some way or form in its life have been approved by Ford. Either a known Ford approved supplier, or Ford themselves. If you fit a Honda part to a Ford car..and it goes wrong..Ford will not take ownership of the problem. You fitted a non-approved item.

    Same is true for boats. If the boat is LR approved…look at the cert…and then make sure items fitted are LR approved. The idea is that you’re maintaining a consistent quality of the whole boat through consistency with the products used.
     
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  3. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Thanks Ad Hoc- I appreciate that I can get a good explanation very quickly on here..cheers!...tomorrow ill call and ask EXACTLY what is "approved by ABS and Lloyds...now i know a little bit more than i did ealrier..i find the insurance stuff hard to sift through...
     
  4. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    To actually build a boat its a really good thing !! once you accept the fact a inspector will be randomly going to check every thing including your working knowledge of what glassing is all about plus all and every material used .
    The DNV 147 foot super yacht i worked on i told my guys we were not going to build to Dnv Standards because i raised the bar to my level and my level is much higher than theres !!.
    during the whole 2 years of making every part for the structure and fit out of the inside of the boat !! we had a QA full time , it was his job to check and record every step ,take samples ,randomly of resins and check usage rates and samples of all materials were collected and labled twice a day . its really good and you learn a lot ,Just accept that there standard is the bottom line not to go below so if you exceed that your standard of workmanship goes up ,you productivity goes up ,and it just becomes second nature after a very short time !!.
    We regularly got asked to make special samples for testing to make sure they passed .
    No way!! the samples were just bits cut off the panels we were making and always passed with flying colours . one thing i cant stand is smart assed NA's and there pompus attatude on a project of this magnitude trying to cheat and be smart !!!!. All plans had to be approved and stamped and signed by 3 people or the parts never got made .
    I alway made sure all the guys and myself looked at and discused the whole job so everyone understood what had to be done and how these meeting always included the QA so he could get his head round what was going to be happening .
    On our big work bench we would have 6 or 8 differant jobs going one after the other all completely differant for differant parts of the boat . or just one really big panel that could have differant glass each side ! just everu one was always 100% on the ball all the time
    We tripped up the NAs a few times with silly mistakes they had made and i rejected drawings till they accepted there misstakes and re-drew .
    The project manager was a personal friend so any hassles i just side tracked everyone and went straight to the big cheese and let him deal with it !!

    So would you buy a boat that had been built to survey recognised world wide standard or a boat that came out of the back door of the factory and some cash back handers !!
    When to talking millions of dollars for a boat you need to be able to smile !!:D

    Even to this day i will never lower my standards of workmanship for anyone ,dont care who it is !! :p
     
  5. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Hi Tunnels- its sounds like you knew what you were doing--thankfully im not in a production situation--but if i was, I sure would follow some fo what you posted..-i agree exactly with what your saying--when it comes to millions of bucks- you want that money invested wisely in good quality hulls and materials...
    were you guys laying up pre-fabbed frp panels?sounds like something that my plans talk about- where you make a table then pre-lam the panels up and join them to make the hull?
     
  6. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    A piece of 6mm "approved " plywood can be used in the hull of a skiff, but not a supertanker. There is a link between " approved" material and it application. To be certified all must match. Why are you building to certification ? Very expensive.
     
  7. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Hi Micheal--im not building to cert--just a product i am looking at- some honeycomb which is both ABS and Lloyds approved. i wondered if this means it is approved for hull and bulkheads etc- i.e. structural or is it - "approved" in the sense that it is recognized for only certain applications like above the waterline etc. And does this guarantee underwriters certification-i.e. ian insurable hull if i use the material as "approved"?...
    i hear ya on the differences..i think Joubert for instance is approved for below the waterline, but im not building out of ply- and what about steel? or cored hulls? its gets confusing--I understand that to find out more id have to sift through all the documentation for each approved usages??
    And each class society seems to have different rules...(insert head spinning icon here)...
     
  8. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    That makes sense.

    For what structure, application the material is classed for ? I dont know .

    For instance Some classes need fireproof materials or material with addition specs for certain components.

    Building to class is expensive. Most of the boats Ive been involved with only " observe " class because it represent good practice , they never actually achieve class.

    A naval Architect will always know. Perhaps asking the specific question, application on Boatdesign net could yield and answer.
     
  9. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Why would you be affraid to build to a DNV survey standard ?? remember they are laying down the minimum acceptable requirements you dont have to do exactly as they say!!, if you exceed there standards and make it better not a problem !!
    its how all boats should be made from 10 metres and over they should come with a approved standard of construction certificate to prove it . if you go buy a second hand boat and while you looking you find two boats exactly the same and one has been built to survey and the other hasnt which one would you look at more seriously ?? .
    Not every company would be able to do that kind of work because the work place has to be to there standards !! clean tidy and organised . even the guys used to have to have a certificate of compitance to prove they have the ability to carry out the work and had a good understanding of all the basics !! When i worked in Tahiti i had a certificate that was required to build off shore fishng boats so the company there could build boats that were approved and built to DNV standards .
    its how things should be done anyway !!Standards vary from one survey place to another but depends which one you want to use . if they do there job like they should you will learn alot and if you dont follow there rules and try to pull the wool over they eyes you are an idiot and if they dont accept what you've done you have no one to blame but yourself !!its for you own good and the good of the boat to be built to a acceptable standard !!
    Its the way i worked for the last 20 or more years !!:p:p:D
     
  10. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    I completely agree-- a hull should be overbuilt slightly-if not heavily, if a work boat- especially a small tug -like mine.. my laminate schedule is about 140-160 oz's of triax cloth over 1 inch thick core...i have done my own -unscientific tests- but they are very empirical, and i cannot hole the test slab--unless i drop a sharp pointed steel object from 25 ft directly on to the slab--and even then it has hard time penetrating the layers...it is stiffer than a steel hull...and it will have less moisture issues and the expansion rates are the same for PP and frp. water cannot migrate through the core even if holed due to the cell structure--there is also no friablility with polypropylene... It deflects rather than deforms, sop the yield points give a "time sensitive" safety margin...it is rot proof, cannot absorb water, and its cheap. relatively speaking *ahem*

    to me it seems like the best way to build a workboat hull--even better than core cell which is 3 times the cost. or steel..and especially wood since i hate wood for a workboat.
    the material is Lloyds and ABS apporved so im assuming this means its ok below the waterline--since many boats have been built with it including trawler hulls,which includes hull, deck, bulkheads etc. it must be ok to use?

    But how to find what the standard is..

    IS the issue...


    I am always asked by the sellers of the frp and resin (Noahs Toronto) why im overbuilding it.--well for me there isnt any such thing in "tug world" as being "overbuilt" so if i gotta go frp(which i must!) then its going to have thick layers of triax cloth..I dont want to assume anything as far as strength and rigidity so I plan on going above and beyond what is called for...

    over the summer i bought all my drivetrain gear, props, bearings etc...now its on to the hull but must again wait till spring-- so the old addage is true-
    "It will take twice as long to build a boat than you first calculate"


    so where to begin with finding out whats the standard?..i dont think my boat has ever been done this way--so there is no standard yet--i have seen tugs in the 25 ft range in frp/grp laid up with single skins and they were about an inch thick..but there was lots of csm..so does Lloyds or AB have anything to say on a small tugboat in frp/grp??

    seems like that might be hard to find info on...
     
  11. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    perhaps... ive just been so long in making this happen i dont want to bother anyone -especially the n.a's on here. Im hoping ive done my homework enough to build a sound hull that will last me at least 20-25 years or so...I never understood how the class societies work and my hull is so specialized. -im likely to get differing professional opinions...
    the N.A. that designed my hull- Mal low suggested something called pre-lam. this is laying up the sheets of cloth then joining with epoxy fillets..since the tug is flat bottomed and rockered-it is easily developed.

    he suggested a single laminate using lots of csm and cloth..but i know triaxial is much better..coupled with a good core..it must be stronger..especially since im using better cloths and more of it. believe it or not--total costs for this in materials will come to less than steel...


    people forget that steel needs blasting (very expensive) very high tooling costs,lifting gear-gantries, come alongs, the weldment, and expensive coatings -add in insulation and frp/grp starts to sound awefully attractive considering the lower maintenance costs, the ease of fabricaiton and the less unskilled work that an amateur can do!--and not having to do haul-outs every year to coat it and blast rust areas'..even if there was no rust --you have to get any blooms as they first start..so this is why im going the frp/grp route-- hence a need to see if this product is a good one...
     
  12. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Your first course of action would be to approach the Class society you are familiar with or wish to use or simply to maintain, as per the boat.

    They will provide you with a list of suppliers that have been "type" approved. This ensures the materials are meeting their standards.

    The build part..is another matter entirely. Tunnels has given some of the issues/points, but it can get rather detailed in a one line reply. Suffice to say if the builder/yard has never built to Class before they require to be audited by the Class society. They check their QA and the facilities and procedures, and also with each new build, they coupon test the layup. If none exists, makes matters worse..and so on.

    So, really, best approach the Class society as they shall advise you for 'approved' materials suppliers etc. When you find one, ask to see their cert. The cert should clearly sate what has been approved, and what date the cert is valid from and its duration.

    This is where it becomes subjective and difficult. Composites require far more proper accountability than metals. By this I mean the QA side; this is extremely important. This comes down to the experience of the yard and the designer...but both must provide approved dwgs and QA certs to demonstrate their worth. Otherwise, always default to Class, if in doubt, or seek another opinion. Since why yard XX lays up differently to yard ZZ, may be owing to more in service experience or previous failures or class compliant etc etc. If in doubt, aways ask and ask to see the paper work if you need that 100% reassurance.
     
  13. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    I have not read all the posts this morning we got to work late !!so will read when i heave a few minutes to spare !
    The point is if you are going to start making boats out of glass is to follow what the plans say and been stamped with the surveyors approval , remember no stamp and signature you dont build !! most important !!
    Start on the right foot !! all the surveyors i had anything to do with are 95% practical people the other 5% are just up themselves and totally useless but they wheeled a lot of power so dont get on the wrong side!! .
    Its never a mater of making thing heavy but making them how they surposed to be made .
    The choice of glass you use and understanding all its properties is the key to fibreglassing !! You can making boats strong but they dont have to be thick and heavy !!, theres differant types of strength depending on what the boat is used for and how its used .
    The word strong is pretty meaningless untill you understand what strength you are wanting !!.
    Confussed ?? it can be untill you know first hand which strength is best to be used for your situation . if your into tug boats you are looking for durability and dependability and robust . so with all those things in mind then you are able to narrow the choice of glasses and the best resins that are suited for those situations !!:)
     
  14. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Thats hitting the nail on the head-- and what i knew but was failing to communicate...durability!...the thing is- it has to sit on its warterline- thus- it must be ballasted if too light anyway..so the boat has a set weight limit at the time of design...so to build it light - would not do it justice..light is good for sailing yachts or shallow draft vessels that plane..but for a workboat the added weight sinks her to its lines. but its also means a strong hull due to thick laminate schedules and thick core...Hankinson says that a stiff hull is a strong hull too, and the more layers on a core-assuming good bonding- means a durable-impact resistant, and "stiff" hull as in "stiff and not tender in a seaway"
     

  15. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member


    Weight and being sensable with it is a good thing You mention core for a work boat i would not recomend you use core at all anywhere in the hull!!
    Decks and superstructure yes but better to make glass stringers and frames for the hull and glass beams to support the decks and cabins etc . Add ballast if it floats high !! this way ballast can be remover if need be!! if a bigger motor some time in the future needs to be installed not a problem will still be able to float where you want it . Id even look at the fesability of using water ballast in differant places !! easy to change where its placed so the boat stays level allways and or remove at the flick of a switch so to speak when you are going up on the slips for maintance or repairs !!
    Theres a raft of things to thinkabout and things to think seriously about .
    Stiff is a difficult word !! stiff can also mean it could break more easy as well !!.With a little flex and twist it then becomes more durable and able to absorb and spring back to its origanal shape . All these things are depended on the glass type thats chosen for the construction for not only the hull and its framing but the deck frame work and cabin and the likes . Using the right glasses and in the right way glass will bend and flex forever and never show any signs of damage anywhere and to go hand in hand is the resun used Vinylester is my only choice but again theres a long list , you need "Toughness" not brittle .
    It will take one very clever engineer person to make all these things work thats for sure .
    I can already feel braincells moving that been asleep for a few years!!

    Just as a matter of interest what size boat and what kind a horse power , prop sized and bollard pull you talking about ???:?:
     
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