What Do We Think About Climate Change

No you are not confused! Yes they are the so called "weak" alternatives as quoted from another's previous posting. I don't see them as weak. However I feel that none of the fore mentioned could act alone as an economic base. As there are many ways to extract oil, there are many ways to extract/ produce hydrogen. I see them more as ways to extract/ produce a product that is more tradable. I believe that hydrogen would make a better economic base; a base that would more readily replace oil.

Party Up,
Aristophanes

 

it would be nice,,,i'd go along with any of them that got us away from oil ( after i make my million $ from it) ,, im even thinkin bout a chicken **** burning car ( quick way to get rid of mine) hehe

 

Like you said, whatever gets us away from oil. Too bad we can't use the people who don't believe that climate is a reality as fuel; they seem to be loaded gas, plentiful and easy to find.

Aristophanes

 

My idiotic two cents...

One thing is certain from what I can see.
We need real education in the US. Ain't got nun. We are a pack of church-going conservatives that are suspicious of any change at all. We don't have traditions (not in the Euro sense) except for a tendency to treat our good life like old money treats it's finances. We just try to hold onto what we have, and we get mad when someone tells us that we can't act like idiots anymore. Europe is a less stable environment (has been historically). We have it easy here. People don't want things to change, and they are in good company. It is easy to be in denial when you are in the middle of an AMEN crowd. It's going to take a bit of a crash to shake it up here. Hopefully, Obama will have the forethought to rent a KKK outfit to go to his next debate with McCain in. We gotta make him seem like a corporate bought-and-sold conservative so we can sneak him into the Whitehouse back door. Then we might get some social structure in place here. That may help us in the future to actually develop a society, culture, and some sense of responsibility for our greedy virus-like tendencies. We can do it, of that I am certain.

I have not seen (as a point of some research) that we can support our current population in a totally indefinite state on this planet. Research indicates that the US alone is about 30% higher than it could actually support in a renewable state. Some research that actually seems more believable shows that with a few percentages of error in certain areas, we might have ten times the actual sustainable population. Pre-industrial levels of population seem to bear that out. At that level, you can have some decent per-capita energy usage on a renewable level.
There is no "magic fuel". We get all of our energy...all of it...from nuclear power. The sun. You can only renew as much of that as you can collect. Breeder reactors are our only real "cheat". If you want to have a high-population, and high energy use, nuclear is the only option if you want sustainability. Sun farms and the like do not bring good return, and we would need a lot of dirt covered up with solar panels to support our current needs. Not really doable. The math does not pan out. The math does not come close. Want alternatives? Gotta think big. Gotta think extraplanetary. Gotta think space elevators and sollettas and all kinds of hokey stuff that you can only build with a real integrated and dedicated society...which brings us back to education....

 

ya should see the wind farms comming your way off your coast,,,they make SO much energy here,, that the lines cant handle it,,their adding more and bigger lines now,,and the solar chimneys can cover thousands of acres, and the land still be used for farming, livestock,,,can ya imagine 1 out of every 5 farms ( that us citizens pay for by GIVING the farmer money even if he doesnt grow anything) under a chimney,,and talking bout farmers,,,what bout half of those idiots,,,instead of taking our money,, farm something you can make HONEST money with,,solar power.,,nuclear power is cool and all,,,but do you want its waste in your back yard?,, and if you changed completly over to nuclear,,,could you imagine all the accidents, and all the waste,,,oil is killing us,,what bout that crap?

 

Part of the education thing. People know a lot less about nuclear power than they think they do. Wind farms that you can still use for agriculture does not address the fact that we are using far far too much land for agriculture. The albedo signature of a wheat field (over a year period) is almost the equivelant of bare ground. The problem is not just oil use. It is far far more than that. A sustainable society would look more unusual than just some windfarms hacking migratory birds to death and emaciating bee populations and the like. Not that getting involved with non-hydrocarbon based energy distribution systems is a bad thing at all. It's just that properly run, nuclear power is lower impact than any other form of energy production, period. I am sure you have heard of all kinds of hideous goings-on about Long Island, Chernobel, and finding spent nuclear fuel in your trash-can, but the truth is, containment of spent fuel and low-level waste is not the issue you think it is.
(Cite: http://www.goshen.edu/bio/Biol410/BSSPapers98/schrock/schrock.html )
An average supermarket parking lot full of barrels would represent all the non-incineratable nuclear waste ever produced. We could store this in Yucca Mountain easily, but that is not even neccessary. It is another stupid political issue. You see, all the spent nuclear fuel could/can still be re-processed. Literally, it can be easily made good again. The issue is that the same process that does that is used to create weapon-grade material. The issue of nuclear waste is an issue born of ignorance. Education and a re-training from hearsay of ignorant paranoia is extremely important. I for one could live as a Luddite no problem, but I can't get the rednecks to do that, so I gotta be interested in the energy economy. Nuclear energy is the only clean compact form of energy production that I could not find huge issues..other than social...with. As far as melt-downs and large plant disasters: Chernoble is nothing like a modern plant. It was nothing like what it was supposed to have been in the first place. We do things TOTALLY differently. The Long Island event was BS as well. Not only was that also drasticly different technology, but the causation of the problem was because the PR people involved did not release information in the correct way. It was not as big of a deal as it was made out to be.
Wanna lend a hand with re-forming society to a responsible drumbeat? Take part and do a real individual investigation into the minutia and issues surrounding nuclear power, as well as the problems associated with solar, hydro, wind and other forms. Then make the call. Then teach what you have learned, whatever that may be. We need more WIDELY educated opinions on this stuff, or we can't make the right decisions.

 

sustainable society<<i didnt know we was talkin bout that,,,,,and if your gonna put things down,, least know what your talking about,,,,do you know how many birds have been hacked up by them slow moving turbines??,,i do,,,,NONE,,there has NEVER been 1 documented case of a bird being hacked by a wind generator.
and the bee kill off is due to a bacteria,,,,see,,,you HAD a good conversation going,,,then you let your OPINION sound like facts.,,,and i lived very FEW moles from 3 mile,,,,and the next town over will soon be a nuclear dump site,,,so ive heard alot,,,,but ive SEEN the "real deal",,,and im not to sure the #s given by the nuclear commission is even CLOSE to that ridicules parking lot #,,,hehe,,im sure THEIR # was MUCH higher.
,,and all this that your saying,,,,,kinda, in a funny way,,,proves your own point,,,,,we need ALOT more education ,, instead of the usual responses of BOTH sides.
and on the "not knowing bout nuclear",,,,my uncle was a reactor "plumber"
and again,,,crunch your #'s,,,say theres 1 nuclear (power plant only,,,we wont even start on the transporting the waste material, and how many of those accidents there are)accident for every 50 power plants every 10 years.,,,How many of those plants will we need? and to even entertain the notion that a accident like the russians had isnt possible because we're so much more technically advanced now,,is pretty "simple" minded,,,,,how many of our technological war vehicles have we lost just cause of a faulty wire or fuse?
see,,,we have ALL thought,,and discussed,,and shown each other #'s,,,read this whole thread, and all the links,,so we "kinda" have a hold on the #'s,,having a good convo bout matters like this takes more then the usual "babble",,,,,,,,so dont get mad,, or take it personal,,the kind of person i am,,,,i may just agree with ya,,,but that doesnt make babble any more truer.
and ya never answered,,,,,do you want that waste site in your backyard?,,,and if your answer is yes,,,,,,i hope ya dont have children or old mothers around ya house to often,,hehe

 

Have you heard of the 59th minute? We are there brothers ... it is already too late. Sit back enjoy the ride. Last call ... drink up, drink up.

Party it up,
Aristophanes

 

That's right - nuke the lot and start again! thinking of changing my name to Adam, now where did I put that apple?

 

saying its too late is a cop out,,,,thats the excuse people that dont want to change say , to make not doing anything o.k. in their heads.

 

Uh, dude...the bee and the bird thing were SARCASM.

Next, I was a Navy nuclear engineer...yeah, I know a bit about Rickovers....and a fellow Alumini and close friend designs wind turbines. No, I don't want waste in my backyard, that is what most of the post is about---like read it! Hear the words Yucca mountain. Hear the words "re-processing" Hear the words "education" Oh for Crisake, hear the words "visit your third grade English teacher for writing lessons". And keep the insinuations of "doesn't know what you are talking about" or "presenting opinions as facts" in your colon. I believe I made the statement something like " Take part and do a real individual investigation into the minutia and issues surrounding nuclear power, as well as the problems associated with solar, hydro, wind and other forms. Then make the call. Then teach what you have learned, whatever that may be. We need more WIDELY educated opinions on this stuff, or we can't make the right decisions.
This is a call for people to get into the science of things, think for themselves, NOT an attempt to present any opinions as facts. You are just reacting defensivley to a perceived (incorrectly) attack on wind turbines.
EDIT:
I do agree that saying "it's too late" is a serious cop out. It's too late to be caught in the architypical grief process when dealing with environmental issues. What is that? Denial, Anger, Blame, and finally acceptance.

 

dude,,,i heard the words,,,yucky mountain,,and reprocessing,,,,,how many nuclear warheads are dismantled every day?,,even our weapons get "cleaned out" and THAT is waste as bad as it is straight from the nuclear reactor.and yucky mountain is someones backyard,,,and they thought hard bout filling that mountain,,,,,but cant,,,cause of all the problems with the rock,,,and they've shown the waste CAN leak out.
and you kinda dont know what your talking bout,,,when ya say things like waste is an issue of ignorance ,,,i also own a railroad in maine,,,we've had a few "hot loads" go through,,,and i see all the precautions they go through,,,,,the waste is as bad as the "good stuff" JUST as dangerous.
and NO im not being defensive bout wind turbines,,,i think the damned things are ugly,,,and im NOT "attacking" you,,,and am actually just having a conversation,,, i actually like it when we talk things around,,,i think nuclear is a way to go,,,but there needs to be EXTREME changes to assure public safety,,,see to turn it around,,,how come your only thought is about nuclear?,, it actually sounds like no matter what facts are shown,,your "opinion" (which i think does matter as much as facts when shooting round ideas,,,not saying "what is so") is the only way.,,,,,,,,,,ya know what i think?,,i think we cant be as STOOOOPID as we are now and depend on 1 solution,,,it will take ALL of them to make it so our kids can live a REAL life.
and i can "write" as good as my third grade teacher,,,i even got all them red lines to show me whats misspelled,,,,,now if we wanna throw insults around,, i can join ya,,,but im pretty sure you dont want that,,i didnt personally attack your grammar,,,,,,wtf is chrisakes?
now try to go back to a conversation,,,cause i have plenty of insults,,,but we TRY to keep this thread for the grown-ups.

 

Hey Brothers,

We are on the same side. Please, please prove me wrong. I work in the Eastern slopes seeing things every day that, to me, are indisputable proof of climate change. I see the pine / spruce Beatle where it couldn't survive 10 years ago, yet there are still multitudes of people out there saying, of climate change, "it doesn't exist". Read what Pericles wrote at the beginning of this thread, then speak to me of denial, that's the mind that needs adjusting. How will we cure cancer when the afflicted deny having it. If we can get everyone, or at least a critical mass, to admit that we are denial of a deadly disease, for which there is no cure then, and only then, offer a glimmer of hope, we will not be fighting a winning battle.

We can't pack up and find a new planet, yet if we could, do you really think it would be the you or me on the ark or would be the Bush's? I would rather work with you than work alone. Please before dropping "cop out" and "Denial", research the 59th minute. If you do not have the time, goggle "Suzuki Speaks", it will help us all to become well informed.

Pissing and moaning about anything won't change it, believe me I have tried. Please guys, I know how much fun and addictive this stuff can be but ignorance is no excuse for failure. If you research the 59th minute, and still feel as if it is I that that is in denial, I will gladly give you the benefit of the doubt and where any tag of your choosing, It just won't be long before you remove it. We do something or we don't, I will not waste my time pissing in the wind. I will do what I can to make a difference then enjoy the sunset as the Zeppelin burns.


Party it up,
Aristophanes

 

the 59th minute is full of "opinions" and full of "facts" that ar not shown in a way that actually SHOWS the data is true,,,,everybody on ALL sides,(theres bout 5 sides) shows data the contradicts the "others",,,its never too late,,,,and there will always be people in denial,,and as usual, it will take the "few" to save the "many".
and people like "Pericles" is what is needed,,,,,cause without the views of all,,,no solutions are a definite,,if we all thought the same way,,,,, we end up like "waco texas",,,what if he's right?,,that makes us hypochondriacs <big werd:: and the ones in denial.,,,,,,i believe #'s are exaggerated from BOTH sides,,,,they ALWAYS are,,but i also believe that if we are wrong,,,thats o.k.,,the result from our "mistake" only makes life a little more difficult for a while,,but ends up making the earth better,,,,,BUT,,,the results from the "mistake" from the ones that believe nothing is wrong ,, would be what?,,,"their" results have dire effects,,,"ours" results in a better world.

 

oh,,,, and i agree that the worlds population is WAY too high,,,and we're "using" way more then we "produce" ,,,but before we "use" everything up,,,,,a disease will wipe us out,,,thats the major problem with over population.