What Do We Think About Climate Change

Wanna get smart? Take the time to read about self-congratulation as a basis for social policy - read The Vision of The Anointed by Thomas Sowell. Read it three times and you'll gain insight into what goes on in the minds of conservative people that think and liberals that think too much.

 

The mathematicallly illiterate exposes himself as such.

 

wanna get smart?
ask yourself why deniers and industry reps refuse to answer a few very basic and simple questions about there sources of information
and then ask yourself who's obfuscating?


why is it that a huge percentage of the sources deniers use on this thread are clearly industry stooges writing pseudo-science, funded by industry and printed in industry rags deceitfully presented as scientific journals?

need I expose more phony sources commonly used by the deniers?

although I could repost the previous ignored posts 2543 2564 or 2567

Im curious
did the deniers ignore em because they exposed there sources for the industry stooges they are?
or did they ignore them because the question requires an admission of error?

why wont deniers address the issue of why the huge percentage of your sources are industry paid industry published and industry spin stooges if your views are such good old fashioned wholesome independence and science as you claim?

are you ignoring the point because you have no possible rebuttal?

are you acknowledging simple scientific practice with your continues denials of the importance of consensus?

if 97% of the science says one thing and 3% says something inconclusive
and deniers just manage to stumble onto that 3%
congratulations
your still way wrong

I think to the readers its obvious what your up to

 

mark 775,

well written mate, you obviously have seen more than the backyard.

I live and work in China, all day every day, i am told (by their media) just how good everything is for China, however I still manage to look over the back fence, and this is not what I see......

 

"Few challenges facing America and the world are more urgent than combating climate change.The science is beyond dispute and the facts are clear."
— PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, NOVEMBER 19 , 2008

With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true.

We, the undersigned scientists, maintain that the case for alarm regarding climate change is grossly overstated. Surface temperature changes over the past century have been episodic and modest and there has been no net global warming for over a decade now. After controlling for population growth and property values, there has been no increase in damages from severe weather-related events. The computer models forecasting rapid temperature change abjectly fail to explain recent climate behavior. Mr. President, your characterization of the scientific facts regarding climate change and the degree of certainty informing the scientific debate is simply incorrect.


Syun Akasofu, Ph.D, University Of Alaska
Arthur G. Anderson, Ph.D, Director Of Research, IBM (retired)
Charles R. Anderson, Ph.D, Anderson Materials Evaluation
J. Scott Armstrong, Ph.D, University Of Pennsylvania
Robert Ashworth, Clearstack LLC
Ismail Baht, Ph.D, University Of Kashmir
Colin Barton Csiro, (retired)
David J. Bellamy, OBE, The British Natural Association
John Blaylock, Los Alamos National Laboratory (retired)
Edward F. Blick, Ph.D, University Of Oklahoma (emeritus)
Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, Ph.D, University Of Hull
Bob Breck Ams, Broadcaster Of The Year 2008
John Brignell, University Of Southampton (emeritus)
Mark Campbell, Ph.D, U.S. Naval Academy
Robert M. Carter, Ph.D, James Cook University
Ian Clark, Ph.D, Professor, Earth Sciences University Of Ottawa, Ottawa, Canada
Roger Cohen, Ph.D, Fellow, American Physical Society
Paul Copper, Ph.D, Laurentian University (emeritus)
Piers Corbyn, MS, Weather Action
Richard S. Courtney, Ph.D, Reviewer, Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change
Uberto Crescenti, Ph.D, Past-President, Italian Geological Society
Susan Crockford, Ph.D, University Of Victoria
Joseph S. D'aleo, Fellow, American Meteorological Society
James Demeo, Ph.D, University Of Kansas (retired)
David Deming, Ph.D, University Of Oklahoma
Diane Douglas, Ph.D, Paleoclimatologist
David Douglass, Ph.D, University Of Rochester
Robert H. Essenhigh, E.G. Bailey Emeritus, Professor Of Energy Conversion, The Ohio State University
Christopher Essex, Ph.D, University Of Western Ontario
John Ferguson, Ph.D, University Of Newcastle
Upon Tyne, (retired)
Eduardo Ferreyra, Argentinian Foundation For A Scientific Ecology
Michael Fox, Ph.D, American Nuclear Society
Gordon Fulks, Ph.D, Gordon Fulks And Associates
Lee Gerhard, Ph.D, State Geologist, Kansas (retired)
Gerhard Gerlich, Ph.D, Technische Universitat Braunschweig
Ivar Giaever, Ph.D, Nobel Laureate, Physics
Albrecht Glatzle, Ph.D, Scientific Director, Inttas (Paraguay)
Wayne Goodfellow, Ph.D, University Of Ottawa
James Goodridge, California State Climatologist, (retired)
Laurence Gould, Ph.D, University Of Hartford
Vincent Gray, Ph.D, New Zealand Climate Coalition
William M. Gray, Ph.D, Colorado State University
Kenneth E. Green, D.Env., American Enterprise Institute
Kesten Green, Ph.D, Monash University
Will Happer, Ph.D, Princeton University
Howard C. Hayden, Ph.D, University Of Connecticut, (emeritus)
Ben Herman, Ph.D, University Of Arizona, (emeritus)
Martin Hertzberg, Ph.D, U.S. Navy, (retired)
Doug Hoffman, Ph.D, Author, The Resilient Earth
Bernd Huettner, Ph.D.
Ole Humlum, Ph.D, University Of Oslo
A. Neil Hutton, Past President, Canadian Society Of Petroleum Geologists
Craig D. Idso, Ph.D, Center For The Study Of Carbon Dioxide And Global Change
Sherwood B. Idso, Ph.D, U.S. Department Of Agriculture (retired)
Kiminori Itoh, Ph.D, Yokohama National University
Steve Japar, Ph.D, Reviewer, Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change
Sten Kaijser, Ph.D, Uppsala University, (emeritus)
Wibjorn Karlen, Ph.D, University Of Stockholm, (emeritus)
Joel Kauffman, Ph.D, University Of The Sciences, Philadelphia, (emeritus)
David Kear, Ph.D, Former Director-General, Nz Dept. Scientific And Industrial Research
Richard Keen, Ph.D, University Of Colorado
Dr. Kelvin Kemm, Ph.D, Lifetime Achievers Award, National Science And Technology Forum, South Africa
Madhav Khandekar, Ph.D, Former Editor, Climate Research
Robert S. Knox, Ph.D, University Of Rochester (emeritus)
James P. Koermer, Ph.D, Plymouth State University
Gerhard Kramm, Ph.D, University Of Alaska Fairbanks
Wayne Kraus, Ph.D, Kraus Consulting
Olav M. Kvalheim, Ph.D, Univ. Of Bergen
Roar Larson, Ph.D, Norwegian University Of Science And Technology
James F. Lea, Ph.D.
Douglas Leahy, Ph.D, Meteorologist
Peter R. Leavitt, Certified Consulting Meteorologist
David R. Legates, Ph.D, University of Delaware
Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D, Massachusetts Institute Of Technology
Harry F. Lins, Ph.D. Co-Chair, IPCC Hydrology and Water Resources Working Group
Anthony R. Lupo, Ph.D, University Of Missouri
Howard Maccabee, Ph.D, MD Clinical Faculty, Stanford Medical School
Horst Malberg, Ph.D, Free University of Berlin
Bjorn Malmgren, Ph.D, Goteburg University (emeritus)
Jennifer Marohasy, Ph.D, Australian Environment Foundation
James A Marusek, U.S. Navy, (retired)
Ross Mckitrick, Ph.D, University Of Guelph
Patrick J. Michaels, Ph.D, University Of Virginia
Timmothy R. Minnich, MS, Minnich And Scotto, Inc.
Asmunn Moene, Ph.D, Former Head, Forecasting Center, Meteorological Institute, Norway
Michael Monce, Ph.D, Connecticut College
Dick Morgan, Ph.D, Exeter University, (emeritus)
Nils-axel Morner, Ph.D, Stockholm University, (emeritus)
David Nowell, D.I.C., Former Chairman, Nato Meteorology Canada
Cliff Ollier, D.Sc., University Of Western Australia
Garth W. Paltridge, Ph.D, University Of Tasmania
Alfred Peckarek, Ph.D, St. Cloud State University
Dr. Robert A. Perkins, P.E. University Of Alaska
Ian Pilmer, Ph.D, University Of Melbourne (emeritus)
Brian R. Pratt, Ph.D, University Of Saskatchewan
John Reinhard, Ph.D, Ore Pharmaceuticals
Peter Ridd, Ph.D, James Cook University
Curt Rose, Ph.D, Bishop's University (emeritus)
Peter Salonius, M.Sc., Canadian Forest Service
Gary Sharp, Ph.D, Center For Climate/Ocean Resources Study
Thomas P. Sheahan, Ph.D, Western Technologies, Inc.
Alan Simmons, Author, The Resilient Earth
Roy N. Spencer, Ph.D, University Of Alabama-Huntsville
Arlin Super, Ph.D, Retired Research Meteorologist, U.S. Dept. Of Reclamation
George H. Taylor, MS, Applied Climate Services
Eduardo P. Tonni, Ph.D, Museo De La Plata, (Argentina)
Ralf D. Tscheuschner, Ph.D.
Dr. Anton Uriarte, Ph.D, Universidad Del Pais Vasco
Brian Valentine, Ph.D, U.S. Department Of Energy
Gosta Walin, Ph.D, University Of Gothenburg, (emeritus)
Gerd-Rainer Weber, Ph.D, Reviewer, Intergovernmenal Panel On Climate Change
Forese-Carlo Wezel, Ph.D, Urbino University
Edward T. Wimberley, Ph.D, Florida Gulf Coast University
Miklos Zagoni, Ph.D, Reviewer, Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change
Antonio Zichichi, Ph.D, President, World Federation Of Scientists

 

As a point in fact China only exceeded our carbon output in 2006.
They only are now surpassing us even though their population far exceeds ours- it is over four times as large.

In terms of total emissions China is first and the US is second.
Adjusted for population the US is one of the worlds highest emitters of carbon.
We rank tenth globally while China is 91st.
The degree to which we import products from China means a large percentage of their output is in fact present on our tally sheet as well.

China is a world leader in alternative energy due to simple survival- the prosperity you cite will not be obtainable if China takes any other path & they know it.
China is one of the worlds highest producers of energy via wind. The are increasing their capacity by more than 100% EACH year. The highest rate of any country. China, Germany and Italy were subsidizing solar panel production while the oil industry backed US administrations were slashing it. As a result we lost 75% of our solar panel production to the leaders in alternative energy technologies.

And you have it right- no one including China has a 'green' economy.. I misspoke. The Chinese are however placing some emphasis on alternative/green energy sources.
The sad state of affairs is such that it is really no great accomplishment to be a world leader in this arena. As time passes though all countries will start to invest and benefit from alternative energy sources and energy conservation policies.

 

Global temperature anomaly data from HadCRUT3

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/

 

Cosmic-rays detected half a mile underground in a disused U.S. iron-mine can be used to detect major weather events occurring 20 miles up in the Earth’s upper atmosphere, a new study has revealed.

http://www.ncas.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=446&Itemid=249

From there:

"What did surprise the scientists, however, were the intermittent and sudden increases observed in the levels of muons during the winter months. These jumps in the data occurred over just a few days. On investigation, they found these changes coincided with very sudden increases in the temperature of the stratosphere (by up to 40 oC in places!). Looking more closely at supporting meteorological data, they realised they were observing a major weather event, known as a Sudden Stratospheric Warming. On average, these occur every other year and are notoriously unpredictable. This study has shown, for the first time, that cosmic-ray data can be used effectively to identify these events. "

 

Earth's Atmosphere "Breathes" More Rapidly Than Thought
By Andrea Thompson, Senior Writer

http://www.livescience.com/space/081216-agu-breathing-atmosphere.html

From there:

"The breathing-like activity is the result of high-speed solar wind disturbances that cause a recurrent expansion and contraction of Earth’s atmosphere every few days, satellite observations show. This atmospheric mode could affect radio communication, orbiting satellites and possibly the Earth's climate, researchers say."

 

well G Ill give you an A for effort
I wouldnt be suprised if the atmosphere breaths more than we give it credit for
nor if muons ( heavy electrons basically directly attributed to solar activity ) are a great indicator of solar activity and strength

ok found your sources and it was I who missed the labeling on the graph
my guess is you were trying to show that although overall the temp has increased that in some few local samplings there was no rise in temp
I think
although this graph seems to agree with the IPCC graphs well






and your list of scientists although at first glance daunting, kinda looks like the list that the deniers were sued for, as fully half of the folks on the list were unaware they were, and sued to have there names taken off
or was that the other list
they all look the same
short
and areas of study not listed
for all we know half those folks could be dentists

basically the primary question is still left unanswered


why wont deniers address the issue of why the huge percentage of your sources are industry paid industry published and industry spin stooges if your views are such good old fashioned wholesome independence and science as you claim?

are you ignoring the point because you have no possible rebuttal?

need I expose more phony sources commonly used by the deniers?

although I could repost the previous ignored posts 2543 2564 or 2567

Im curious
did the deniers ignore em because they exposed there sources for the industry stooges they are?
or did they ignore them because the question requires an admission of error?

why is it that a huge percentage of the sources deniers use on this thread are clearly industry stooges writing pseudo-science, funded by industry and printed in industry rags deceitfully presented as scientific journals?

why the half dozen pages of silence
is it that the readers are not fooled and the truth will out

deniers and industry representatives are using agnotology to try and deceive the public
and we the public are not fooled
time to clean up your act Mr oil and gas man

 

Interesting stuff- thanks for the info

 

NASA Science News, Dr. Tony Philips: "The sunspot cycle is behaving a little like the stock market. Just when you think it has hit bottom, it goes even lower."

"This is the quietest sun we've seen in almost a century," agrees sunspot expert David Hathaway of the Marshall Space Flight Center.

In 2008, the sun set the following records:
- A 50-year low in solar wind pressure
- A 12-year low in solar “irradiance”
- A 55-year low in solar radio emissions

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/01apr_deepsolarminimum.htm

 

then we are really in big trouble G
also from the article you quoted

my thinking is that I agree with you G on at least one thing if only in part the sun cycle should be closely tied to the co2/temp cycle at least in the short term and except for various other mitigating events
unfortunately since the solar cycle is at a hundred year low I would think that temp would also be at a hundred year low
again baring other mitigating circumstances
but its not
it would seem that the sun is temporarily dimming and the earth is steadily warming up anyway
e gads whats going to happen as we approach the solar maximum

Jim
its gotten strangely silent round here

the questions are straight forward

why do the deniers constantly quote from industry representatives

why do deniers so consistently quote from industry news magazines deceitfully presented as scientific journals

why wont deniers address the issue of why the huge percentage of there sources are industry paid industry published and industry spin if they have no affiliation with industry

 

Only laterally related to this thread's debate, I find this of interest.

Job Losses From Obama Green Stimulus Foreseen in Spanish Study
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a2PHwqAs7BS0

"For every new position that depends on energy price supports, at least 2.2 jobs in other industries will disappear, according to a study from King Juan Carlos University in Madrid.

The premiums paid for solar, biomass, wave and wind power - - which are charged to consumers in their bills -- translated into a $774,000 cost for each Spanish “green job” created since 2000, said Gabriel Calzada, an economics professor at the university and author of the report."

Gabriel Calzada has a doctorate in Economy, is a professor at the King Juan Carlos University and the chairman of the Juan de Mariana Institute

http://www.juandemariana.org/articulo/3383/negra/realidad/empleos/verdes/

 

well if we're going way off subject Ive been looking at DIY vertical wind turbine generators
a dam nice one can be made for less than $500 with all bits and pieces available on line from an outfit called Windblue
I was thinking of counter rotating rig one part spins the stator the other the rotor in series with each section being about three feet long and three in diameter
add sections to add power

in a dream I had it horizontally mounted under the canopy of the Elco 57
I think I could fit at least five alternators maybe seven and move the wherry to the top when not sailing
with solar cells on top

was a nice dream

oh
the number of homeowners the homeowner relief pachage has actually helped
is
drum roll please
1
according to CNN just the other day

brilliant plan kids

back to dreaming about the boat