What design features make life aboard comfortable & practical for females?

Hi Wilma,

It's a rainy day today, not so motivating for boat building so must as well exchange on the ideal features of the cruising boat.

I am not really into performance boats either and I agree that you don't want to sail as if you were in a rush all the time. Saying that, a sailboat has to to sail and a boat that needs the engine fired up anywhere higher than a beam reach is just frustrating, a boat that travels like a crab (leeway) is not smart, not saying it can get very unconformable if it doesn't allow you to take a wave properly. You have to be careful about that because it isn't unseen. Those boats tend to have been designed “inside out”, someone decided what they wanted on the inside and built the box around it. They might indeed be very comfy boats in harbour but very poor sea traveling machines, performance has it's importance. If the boat is poor at sailing, must as well have a cruising barge and enjoy it fully on inside waters, thing on my list of dreams to realize, but keeping it for a better age.

About light you might want to look into deck prisms, they are really cool, provide amazing amount of light, more than windows. About the view, you must like spending time outside to live on the water and that is were you'll get the best view. Like some other people I'm not big on the windows and want to a one more point about them. Heat and cold. Energy being an issue on boats you want to temper your boat as naturally as possible for which insulation is good and windows bad. Condensation dripping off a window is a real annoyance and you might want to keep that in mind if you think of colder climates. A bunk positioned under a window (or porthole) can get a chronic wet spot.

About the airline seat, I always only traveled in charter so the concept of comfort doesn't match with airline seat to me and the first class ones seem huge. Anyway, when it is time to be strapped in your seat the concept of comfort comes down to the sea sickness pills, laying down in a pipe birth and closing your eyes. Ok, on a more constructive note and assuming we find room for that seat and and really want it be careful about the materials things you fit in the boat are made of. If I think of our poor car seats here in Canada and what they look like after a few years on the salty roads I don't want to imagine what would happen with the structure of the poor seat in the salty air.

I agree with you about those round settees on which one can't stretch, I don't like them. A good long bench seat is great to read a book on. I do think that a nice big table around which many people can sit is nice. Harbor living is a lot about getting together with the people you meet or travel with and the table is the center of a lot of good time. You don't want to skimp on the table, a lot of your time will be spent their. When you have people on board, and it happens often as we are social species and like sharing our gin and tonics or rhum and cokes, it's nice to have room to all shove them around the table and then you have all your space to get to the snacks. Even when on your own you will spend a lot of time around the table and will like it to be spacious. There will be many long rainy days what are you going to do during those days? Read, write a novel, play cards, draw, paint, surf the net.....? It all happens at the table, and there will be at least two of you, probably doing something different. A big table for a live aboard is good. Still about the table, in my opinion, folding table do not belong on live aboard boats. It gets tiresome to fold and unfold continuously your furniture. Here is a good way to get the picture, in your house, keep only one table in use, get rid of all desks and extra tables. Each time you need it move your table around, each time you are done put it on it's side. When you put stuff away you're not aloud to use an other table. It is a misconception that you won't use your table at sea, there aren't only rough days, there's also boring days. When its rough a sturdy table is good to hold on or wedge against, it's actually nice to have it tight inside. At the best I could deal with a drop leaf table, but a table needs to be sturdy. We are on for a little “my experience” story. I was three years old (and there a things you don't forget from that age) we were off the coast, the sea was fairly calm, the adults about to have their tea, I was under the table (out of the way, fun spot for a kid, v-birth most likely crowded) and the kettle on the table; someone knocked the table, I couldn't tell exactly what happened but the table went down and I was heavily burnt. The next hours were a rush to the nearest port and to the hospital. The kettle shouldn't of been on the table, but the table shouldn't of dropped.
The engine room... My idea of an engine room is that it stays the engine room. I share the mechanics duties with my husband and swear by the engine room, but don't want to have anything to do in there else than care for systems. Generally, and mostly on a forty footer, the engine room is already crowded enough with what it's meant to carry: engine, tanks, batteries (don't forget those they take a lot of space for live aboard), generator, alternators hanging from everywhere, electrical panel, tools, maybe a small bench to put parts on when working in there. You name it, it's crowded.
I see many reasons why not to dry clothes in there, it stinks (the engine, not the clothes) is the first one, greasy dirty stuff lives there (it's the point to keep it away), usually not much hight even less standing room, moving mechanical things you want to keep rags away from. I know the engine is covered with it's sound insulated box, but you just need that on time it's opened up, need to fire up the engine on a spin cloths are drying and there's trouble.
If you have your ice box in the galley and the galley is against the engine room, by all means the compressor should be in there, but you won't have me crawling to get my milk for my coffee. The magic of the engine room is really to use it for what it is, I doubt you find any wasted space by using it as is.

Wow, gone crazy now, should maybe stop the novel and leave some server space for others.

Cheers,
Murielle

 

On center cockpit boats, it's possible for one (or both) passthrough to be for a workshop with work bench. In fact, Paddy mentioned his preference for it a few posts back. And I posted a link that displays a passthrough, so you can get an idea of the potential size.

In most cases, the engine compartment, per se, would be in a small space under the cockpit floor. So you might not be able to easily stand in there; you might only be able stand in the passthrough, next to the engine compartment. Depends on the cockpit floor's height and other dimmensions.

For clothes drying, you can design a locker with a central heating vent attached inside. That assumes you might want a central diesel heater.

Just keep in mind, if you want a pilothouse/hard-dodger with passthroughs, AND you want a pilothouse with one or two forward-facing seats, then your cockpit floor will cut-into the passthrough space somewhat--at least at the front of the cockpit. It's one of those critical areas, so make sure that the hull dimensions allow it.

 

raised cabin

Sure...generally speaking...but you probably don't want a galley in the pilot house, if that's what you mean. I see that on passagemakers every so often, but don't think it's a great idea. IMO, keep the wheelhouse and its contents 'expendable' just in case. Read Ike's post a few pages back to see why.

Another idea... This assumes you have a galley (on one side) and chart table (on the other side) that are right inside the main companionway:

Raise that part of the cabin floor and roof enough to have forward-facing ports there. That way you'll see where you're going while in the galley. In fact, the entire saloon (if located forward of the galley/chart table) can also be raised. That way there's no step to the saloon...or less of a step, depending on how it's designed.

Keep in mind that it'll raise the pilothouse/hard-dodger by the same dimension; so, theoretically, it'll reduce windward performance by a small amount and increase the surface area of the vessel. But on the flip side, you'll get more fuel under the cabin floor.

 

Wilma

As Murielle states above the table is one of the most important pieces of kit you have, it has many uses from chart table at sea (it's probably the only place you can spread a full size chart out properly on a small vessel) to hell with the gimmicky chat table with gear all over it you need some of that stuff next the helm the rest by your bunk/saloon where you can get it in! It's all very well having a nice big chat table on a commercial ship (or even a warship) but they take up a lot of room, and you don't really spend a lot of time poured over the chart anyway! It also doubles as a work station for virtually every other job you need, plus the entertainment centre in port, (spare bed too at a push if its big enough) aso as the lady said it needs to be well built and stable! There's some as would disagree, but on the chart scenario as well as a few other I spent some 37 years at sea making a living of sorts (mostly as a Navigator) on vessels of various sizes from Very Large Tankers right down to fishing boats so I think (!!!big head) Lived on my own boat (Roberts Spray 32) for a fair chunk of that time too I may know something! And the other important thing is the old KISS idea - Keep It Simple Stupid - if it ain't got hinges and other doodads they can't break. And as I'm sure you know by now Electrickery and salt water DON'T mix!

just a thought - pleasent sailing! (Oh yes have you ever looked at a few caravan books? worth a skim for the ideas):idea:

 

chart table

For charts and navigating, I used the Nauticat's cabintop (in front of the helm) inside the wheelhouse. It worked fine and not a having a real chart table saves space, like you said.

But for my new project, I'm building a big U-shaped nav station across from the U-galley. My rationalle is that I can also use it as an office area for work, paying bills, etc. That way, I don't have to move everything when it's time to eat. There might be room for a small book case too.

I've already considered having removable components. Like you said, some of them need to be near the bunk at certain times.

Check-out Epsilon's chart table. Very nice

http://www.cctv.com.au/spray.htm

 

Heres an experienced middle aged couples view. The rest of their site is worth a look too.

http://www.longpassages.org/Ideal_Cruising_Yacht.htm

Cheers

 

Walrus
I concur with your view on the table. These are my experiences too. At anchor the horizontal surfaces become even more important and find many practical uses. Would hate to lose the table at any time.

keeo up the good work

 

...and to think that Wilma was nervous about starting this, her 1st thread. Here we are 144 posts later, and it has developed into quite an interesting discussion

 

I am not nervous any more Will, I am quite chuffed with all the info and replies.
It is hard to keep my head around all the contributions and keep the gold from slipping under. So far I have gathered that v berth are great for kids, they are small enoug to enjoy that enclosed space. But most people are not a fan if that is the only sleeping place on board and I am relieved, I am not the only one who wants a bed to sprawl out on when in port. So I think island beds are definitely on the way in, hopefully with fully extendable drawers underneath. A closed in berth while at sea is of course a given, but I haven't found a good solution for that yet and I am not ready to give up on my airline bed. Murielle, you can see them on the Air NZ site where they show off their new long haul flights comforts. It is still an idea, but they look so comfortable. And I do like to sit in a comfortable chair when I am reading a book.
The table is another object people have strong opinions about. i do like a big table, but as space is limited I still don't see the benefit of one that locks people in behind it as those round couches and tables do. So I would appreciate another solution if possible. I know that folding things away will drive me mad, but if it is well designed and easy then it might not be a problem. I have workplaces at home against the wall where they are out of the way. I still like the idea of kitchen and workbenches close to gether to maximise the use of all work space. Two u shapes together will give more space close to each other, but I have to think about the advantage of that.
The garage or engine room has not been given a lot of attention, I have seen quite tidy engine rooms where not everything is dripping with oil and it did have an engine in it. So I am not sure if a large engine room is a plus. I still think it has merits and I am willing to sacrifice a cabin if it means great work and storage space that is easy accessible.
Large windows have been debated, is the framing more of an issue than the strength of glass these days?
I have other questions, where do you sailors sit most of the time when you are on your boat when it is fine weather and when you are in port? Does that place allows you to sit comfortably and what would you change?
Who of you has been sitting outside when passage making at night and saw a container? Am I wrong that boats are more of a visible thread and that I can see their lights and then I can sit in a pilot house with a light on, can I not?
How often would you change sails when sailing on long passages that makes being outside a neccessity? On long hauls could you sit comfortably inside and being watchful?
I am talking about ocean going yachts where I will be at sea for some time and I want to feel as comfortable as possible without of course being neglectful. I do think I want a pilot house, am I stubborn?

 

1.My experience with boat up to now is only on powered boat.I will stay in the pilot house.
2.I had never seen a container in the water but it is typical to find boats travelling without any lights onn,real hazards.If one is on the decks one can see and hear better. e.g the pounding sound of a very big and fast speed boat that goes boom..boomm..boomm can be heard a few miles away..the rumbling of heavy diesel is very clear at night. I had never came across nights really dark that one cannot clearly see whats happening. Fog is different case.
3.On long haul the duty are split into every two hours.Longer than that it is too taxing..
I like night journey with virtually no naked lights in the pilot house.
Maybe the others had experiences with different kind of duty roster.

 

You are not stubborn, Wilma, you are sensible. Who would want to have their living room in the cellar? And why should it have to be there only because it happens to be on a sailing boat?

Mikey

 

There is a small problem, of course, and someone mentioned it earlier. Designing from the inside out. If you want a fixed table, big galley, engine room and drying room, workshop, fullsize nav table etc. you'll probably end up with a boat that's an equivalent size to the house you live in at the moment. It will also be an absolute pig to sail, and that brings me to my next point.

Seakeeping and handling. There is only one way to find out what you think is comfortable. Go out and try a lot of boats of roughly the same size, but different styles, and then, take your chosen designer out on it so he knows what he's aiming for (assuming you go for a custom build). He'll ask a thousand questions about which bits you like/dislike and probably advise you as to how he would have done things differently. In a weekend, he'll have enough information on the boat and interior to be able to go away and design it in the knowledge that as long as he sticks to his notes you'll get something you'll like. Handling is a trickier matter though bulb-keel yachts are best upwind, then fin keels, then bilge keels then long keels. Similarly manouvring sticks to the same sort of pattern. This is why a lot of sportsboats have bulb (or swept-bulb) keels and deep rudders. However, older cruising boats used long keels (for structural reasons) or bilge keels (for drying out ability and reduced rolling).

Therefore, upwind ability and damping the yacht's motions are really at opposite ends of the hydrodynamic design. There is no global right answer, only what's right for you. Personally, a 35 foot sportsboat with a swept bulb keel and fairly deep rudder would be my starting point. Not because I want to race it, but because it has enough power in reserve to be fun or get out of trouble.

But that may be different for someone else.

Tim B.

PS. Drying things in an engine-room WILL turn all your clothes into oilies.

 

Wilma, have you cruised your own boat?

I ask because before we got Lara, our first (and current) boat we had much the same ideas as you. Our experience was based on sailing dinghies and day boats, but our cruising experience was limited to charters and other people's boats. We still have many of these ideas, but we have modified them.

We got Lara as a learner boat, so that we could develop our sailing and cruising skills. We did, but we also learned the importance of aspects that we simply hadn't thought of. Lara is a 26 foot, bilge keeled, sloop rigged, Westerley Griffon. It is a fine boat for coastal cruising for the holidays, but not for live-aboard, at least not for us, though I have come across the occasional Spartan.

The responsibilities, trials and tribulations etc., really challenged our view of the idyllic romantic simple life of live-aboard. Don't get me wrong, we are still looking forward to the idyllic romantic simple life of live-aboard, but we are much more enlightened about the practicalities.

For example, Murielle makes the point about the importance of being able to make progress into wind. Last year we had the experience of beating into up to F6 with a dead engine and up to 3 knots of tide against us. Sure, we were in no hurry, but the trip took us 24 hours instead of our planned 14-18 and we were pretty uncomfortable. The thought of that for a week rather than a day is worth thinking about.

Another thing is the maintenance work. I figured I'd enjoy fixing bits and pieces, and frequently I do. However some jobs are not so pleasant; antifouling and crawling in diesely bilges come to mind. Even if these jobs are done by us male crew, our spouses have to put up with aromas lingering on us for days afterwards.

Having lived with Lara's foldaway table, the very mention of a solid fixed table that I can swing out of in rough weather has me dreaming of a luxury that I had never even considered.

I'm not trying to put anyone off, we still believe the drawbacks to be relatively minor, but we had to experience them to find that out. We also had to experience them to understand better where we are willing to compromise.

Maybe you've had your own cruising boat for yonks, and have plenty of similar experiences. For anyone that hasn't, this is a very useful discussion to follow, but owning our own cruiser has been a lesson for us that we'd never have gotten chartering, daysailing, crewing / training on other people's boats, nor from all the reading in the world.

 

Again all good points, about speed and size of the boat. What I am trying to do is to look at certain assumptions and just ask the 'why' question.
John has built and lived and sailed on his boat for 9 years. It was a 28 footer with a junk rig and twin keel. He is tall and yet made the inside so he could stand up and he made a bed he could fit in. I am in the category of day and holiday sailing. However I have looked at lots of boats and have seen different lay-out features. Some make me wonder, a 58ft steel ketch had 3 cabins, 3 shower/heads, large cockpit, large swim platform at the back, yet a miserable small engine room. Why? They didn't use the 3 cabins very often (I asked) so that was all empty space for the 'what if' times. They did have a seperate kind of basement space underneath the pilot house that was clean for all the tanks. Why not combine certain areas if that is possible. So I am not saying I want everything like in a house, what I am saying is look at how I use the limited space and think about my own comfort. Getting at the engine means comfort for me too, I know when the thing stops someone can get at it very quickly and repair hours are not taken up by getting at the thing. If that means one cabin less and a sleeping place somewhere else and sharing a toilet, so be it. I am not planning to charter and friends will be told how it is.
Murielle made a good point, she had her living quarters look like a million dollars, warm, dry and cosey and she had a sort of porch through which people entered the living space. This means wet stuff stayed in that unfinished part of the boat. If that means a smaller living space great, I accept that, but at least the smaller living space stays clean and dry. Those things I notice and about those practical things I want to learn from experienced people.
How often are there people sitting around the table configuration. and when? If it is mainly used by the two of us, I want easy access behind and around it. It seems so much space and so much seating for what? A large work bench could be mounted on a wall with a stool bolted to the ground. I don't know, but I want to capture gems out there of people who did have some unusual and workeable solutions. If you don't ask you never capture those gems. If the table and couch is only used in port when we have other boaties around, we could have folding chairs for those occasions or would we be sitting in the cockpit or pilot house anyway?
When I say speed is not important, I don't mean no speed at all, but I don;t want to feel I sacrifice space to be a racing kind of boat.
Most boats feel chopped up in little spaces and that doen't mean I want everything open plan so I can fly about, I mean a bit more multifunctional spaces could mean more elbow room.
Wilma