Welding a steel hull

Brent, you just do not have the ability to understand what most of us "prehistoric boatbuilders" are trying to tell you in a nice way. Please, get on your origami boat and sail back to that origami site where I believe you are god and what you preaches are accepted as gospel. This congregation will not dance to your tune....if I may say so on the behalf of others that are "gatvol" of your ranting.

BTW, why do you have to screw up every post on this board, or better put, hijack every discussion where steel boats are discussed with the same old crap, fabled righting moments, your 11 month cruising year etc etc. how stupid and old fashioned we are - do I need to go on?

It is clear you probably are not aware of a chap we had here on the board called wallydeckhand....

 

I'm only responding to the rants of others . Many times I have let it go, only to have Lazyjack start it all up again with his goofy comments. Leaving his comments unchallenged will cost the not so rich huge amounts of time and money. I have the right to defend the interests of the not so rich. Lazyjack is your problem, not me. Look back over his posts and that becomes clear.
Brent

 

you are clearly , ignorant as to what makes a yacht, none of your boats are yachts, they are ugly pieces of crap full stop
IN FACT BY BUILDING SUCH CRAP YOU ARE ACTUALLY COSTING YOU CLIENTS IN LONG RUN, BECAUSE THEY ARE LANDED WITH AN UNSALEABLE ITEM

Facinating, i did not know my comments would have such an impact upon the world!!
brent my lad, you are at odds with ALL on the thread and forum, , only one that argues with me on metal,
It costs NO more to build a hansome , or pretty yacht that the muck you are doing, that is the simple truth I,ll bet I could build a really dashing yacht twin chined with beautiful lines, for same price as your muck
Oh by way there is 160 more hrs in plating true round bilge, 50 footer, than chines
still you would not know that cos you simply have never done it, and never will
Up til now I have been kind, but no more, goofy , well it sorta cranked me up
this pic nice origami) powerboat at Ijmuiden last Sat, but still too many pipe rails, thats beauty of alloy, you can cut dies for proper cap rails

 

Lazyjack
My last steel boat sold for nearl six times what she cost me. My first 31 footer sold for 3 times what the owner spent on her.
Shinola sold for $95K, Evergreen sold for $120K, Roan for 65K, all for far more than their owners spent on them
As I point out in my book , there is a huge difference between resale value and resale price. Resale price is what you can get for a boat. Resale value is the difference between what you can get for her and what she cost you in the first place. I once told a builder of very expensive , style over substance steel boats that if I were to spend $250K on one of his boats , I'd be lucky to get half that out of her when reselling her. If I spend 20K on a boat of the same size , I'll have no problem getting double that amount in resale .
It's very common to spend an extra 40K on a boat to increase it's resale price by 20K a net loss of 20K.
My boats rarely change hands, and when they do come up for sale they sell quickly for many times whar t theri owner shav espent on them. They are well respected on the BC coast and worldwide by most experienced offshore cruisers. One very experienced veteran circumnavigator is on his third brentboat, another is on his second.
You say a round bilged boat is only 160 hours more than the usual multi chined boat in terms of welding? An origami boat is 1/7th the amount of fitting and welding of that multichine boat.
We have been having a debate on another site about the difference between a yachtsman and a sailior.
A yachtsman is style over substance. A sailor is substance over style.
A sailor is free. A yachtsman is a slave to his ego and the obsession with impressing others, often of little experience, thru childish theatrics.
A sailor is environmentally responsible , a yachtsman is environmentally irresponsible.
You go ahead and build boats for yachtsmen, who value style over substance. I'll build for sailors. I'm not interested in working for mchildish snobs . I prefer dealing with practical people.Don't worry about competition from me . We are not even in the same market.
I get people who can't afford childish vanity , get their asses out to sea and off the treadmill, quickly and affordably. I'll never deny them the right to own a good boat , to preserve the childish elitisim that others do , not for any amount of money.
If I won the lottery tomorrow I wouldn't choose a style over substanc eboat like t your over my own. I have far too mane sea miles under me to be that naive.
Failure to think outside the box has grossly inflated the cost and time of building a steel boat , far beyond what many people can afford, while refusing to take advantage of the properties of steel.
I remember building my first origami boat back in 1980 , in a shop where a qualified english shipwright was building a 30 ft wooden sloop. He kept asking " Why do people keep wanting to re- invent boatbuilding? He spent a year on his boat before he started planking her. Then , just before he started planking he watched me pull a 26 fot hull together in two days.
He said" Well I served my apprenticeship in wooden boatbuilding." I asked "If you had served your aprenticeship in building red river carts , would you still be driving around it one?"
I refuse to build for style over substance or do anything that will undermine the function or seaworthiness of a boat. I have frequently turned down foolish requests in the past , and have always been glad I did.
Over 200 people have chosen my designs . How many of that powerboat have been built?
So tell us what your offshore cruising experience is? How many offshore miles have you cruised ? How many steel boats have you owned and maintained over ten years or more? You learn a lot , maintaining a boat over ten years, that you wouldn't in less than ten years.
Cap rails? A friend had his pipe bulwark caps squashed to an oval in a brake press. It cost him $40 for enough to do his 40 footer. Having a die made up for aluminium is far more expensive. Are all your solutions so expensive? Not a problem for those who can think outside of the box. Why didn't you think of that? Because you are incapable of thinking outside the box?
You say you can build a fairer , better looking boat by cutting a piece of steel into a bunch of smaller parts and welding them back together ? ********.
So why should anyone pay you for your inability to inovate? Sounds like a huge wast of time and money.
You remind me of a Flip Wison skit , which he was doing on Columbus. They said "Christopher Columbus , you can't sail around the world. Everyone knows the world is square." Columbus replied " I know they are." Columbus was at odds with everyone on his chatline at the time, believing the world was round. Those fllat worlders couldn't possibly all be wrong, could they?
Brent

 

Apples & oranges.

From what I've gathered, LazeyJack, you have a boatyard, with; a shop, equipment, workers, maybe an office with a telephone & computer, etc. . You probably either build a boat & sell it, and/or build on behalf of an owner, whom has made a partial payment. Am I close?

On the other hand, from my observations, Brent's office is the Comox public library/his sister's house. The prospective owner either buys the plans from Brent & does it on their own, or supplies the building area, equipment, & basically pays Brent to tack the hull & deck together. Sometimes, Brent moves in with the owner and gets room & board, as well as cash.

By looking at your photos, Stu, my impression is that your buyers would expect new gear, whereas, Brent encourages the cheapest - albeit, quality - used equipment. In fact, he probably spends as much time with the owner, scavenging in scrapyards, used marine supply stores, etc., as you'd spend making/positioning frames. Your average client, probably, would prefer a new engine, not a used diesel, pulled out of an old Volkswagen Rabbit. To each, his own.

As with these other considerations, I really have no idea of how long it takes to complete a build in your yard, nor whether you build the complete boat or just the shell. It is my understanding, however, that those whom build to Brent's plans spend an average of 3 to 5 years to complete, though some are faster, some slower & some never finish, just pass it on.

Gee, I have only been to Aus once, and it was only for a short time, but isn't damn near everywhere one sails considered "offshore"? Sure seemed like it.

Must have misunderstood the $20,000 to $40,000 boat budget thing, or, maybe that's the budget for a really, really small boat(with an eggbeater for an engine).

Sailors vs. Yachties: Is this determined by the weight of a man's wallet or a woman's purse? We have a local legend - now deceased - who built his boats from logs off the beach, with hand tools. Now, I'm not sure if Farrell was a sailor or a yachtsman, in Brent's eyes. He didn't look the yachtie type; sailed naked most of the time, lived the beachcomber lifestyle, yet, was well known for setting out for South Pacific adventures, only to turn around after a few days out, seasick & nervous as a longtail cat in a room full of rocking chairs. By the same token, I've known well-heeled owners of very expensive boats, whom have much sailing knowledge and experience. Then again, who cares whether the buyer is a sailor or a yachtsman, as long as they pay you to build them a boat.

 

"...You go ahead and build boats for yachtsmen, who value style over substance. I'll build for sailors. I'm not interested in working for mchildish snobs . I prefer dealing with practical people.Don't worry about competition from me . We are not even in the same market.
I get people who can't afford childish vanity"

Good grief....

One of the reasons I really like sailing is the camaraderie of sailors from all walks of life. If one of my clients needs a new diesel that costs what you state is the total build for one of your "real sailors" so be it. This vessel heading off on a circumnavigation has a skipper who is wise enough to get the work done so he has a safe boat, not due to some "childish vanity".

This weird subtext that one has to be broke to be a real sailor is nonsense.

 

I don't charge owners for scrapyard or scrounging time. That's sport, not work. Most really get into scrapyard scrounging. I don't have to charge clients to pay my rent when the work slows down, nor wear and tear on my tools.
Allan Farell did one trip as far as Fiji and another to Mexico , Hawaii and back to BC. To him and many others who have experienced BC full time , like so many do the South Pacific, BC was all the paradise he needed.
One doesn't have to be broke, just repect the resourcefullness of those who cruise that way, and refuse to let lack of money stop them from living their dreams. Don' t look down your nose at someone who got out cruising with a fraction the effort , money and time the rich would put in to accomplish the same goal.
Lazy Jack. That powerboat you posted is coyote ugly. I'd be very embarassed if I had built that..
Brent

 

Lets get something straight
I started in 72, in a farm paddock, with no shed, in steel, took me 7 years to build a 43 footer, started with 300 dollars
i made a press out of a screw truck jack to make frames with, angles
When I started pro in 85, after working for some fine yards, I bought all second hand welders, band saw , made my own presses from junkyards I bought no new machines
I quickly learn a pretty and desirable boat is no more costly to build than an ugly pig, no more costly to make a real sailing yacht than a dog)
So I slowly built up, hands on, the most men I had was 10 I was hands on, til 01, I closed down and came here
Now I have to start again, in a paddock, with no power,, thats why I wanted the MILLER, weld genset
i am really too old to do this, but the finances have been battered and my sons can not find work
One think abt Brent, he does not get vicious like some(safewalrus ) for instance, but he does not listen, he thinks that nice boats are expensive boats
tHE French have some beautiful chine boats, I would be proud to own, i see little savings in Origami becuz the steel work is about 25% of total hours in a 55 footer
you take the 54 I did , was 17000 man hrs, 4000 on the metal,
i never made much from yachtbuilding, had my own premises on farm, so no rent, but made lots friends) sorry to disallusion you all
love Stu

 

Hmmm beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

But Lazyjack, Chines do actually damp the roll of a boat.
A lot of round bilge boats particulalrly motor boats and work boats end up with a pair of stub bilge keels welded on just to damp the roll. But why are so many of the chines that we see in these pics of brents designs so unfair ?

Are there any pics sighted along the chine of any BS boat that the chine and the bottom looks fair? It looks like the fair bit is the topsides but the bottom plate has tank ends and floors that cause this unfairness due to welding which is evident in many of the pics of these boats. ??

 

Lazeyjack,
my wife reminded me that we have friends in the Cairns area(edmonton?, edmundsen?, something like that). The husband was in the welding supply business. I'll look for his number. Maybe, he can save you a few bucks on your purchase.
Mike

 

o h dear that boat does our industry harm, it looks like many Aussie boats
there is nothing so sweet as very fair chines and rabbit line
Trouble is with origami, nothing is PROOVED on the loft or by CAD, it relies upon the savvy and artistry of the builder
which indeed had zilch to do with Brent
You see, many start this project off try save money on a good design without proper dwgs and all it does is cost more in long run
there are no shortcuts in boatbuilding, none, there are different methods but no shortcuts

 

Lines of B swain 26 origami

LyndonJ
Here is a few pics of my 26, not perfect but not but ugly as some say. Hull is 10 gage, top sides 12 gage.most was cut with torch and welded with 1/8" 6011 welding rods.
Lazeyjack
Yes you cant loft with origami but building a scale model will do the same.
There is not much to the internals and what little is there is deffinantly not dificult to fit to hull. If you would like I can take a couple current shots of inside so you can see for yourself? Did you buy a welder yet?
Tom

 

Yes please lots that would be great. Thanks

 

Tom,
Difficult to see the chine, due to camera angle/dark paint/shade, but yeah, nice looking boat. How did you align the edges when you welded the chine? I'm guessing that you prepped your edges after cutting them, prior to welding them. Did you oxy-fuel cut or use plasma/other means?

Like I've said in the past, I have no problems with the "origami method", though I prefer Jack Carson's designs, as the chine angle is not as severe(2 chines). When you decided to build this boat, were you aware of Jack's alternative and prefered to have a single chine? I realize that Jack may prefer to design only larger boats, I believe he made this clear to me when we met.
If you were to do it all again, would you go multi or single chine?

Please, don't try to read between the lines, but as one whom has built his hull and is a veteran steelworker, your assessment of the construction method, ergonomics, challenges, etc., will go far in consideration for those whom consider building by this method. As this thread began in the spirit of hull construction, why not discuss the nuances of why your hull is more pleasing to the eye than some similar origami boats? I've seen examples that range from god-awful to very nice. How do you account for the difference? Maybe, you should consider writing a book on the steelworking aspects of building these boats, showing the first time builder how to ensure good fit-up, welding techniques/equipment/sequences, steel prep., etc. . Just a thought.

 

You must be pleased with the wee boat, well done
Nope I did not buy the welder, some crowd near the Miller plant in USA were going to price it, but miller wont supply for shipping here,
i started dwg all my parts full size on Mylar, All I need do then in centre pop onto plate and wizz round with the saw