Welders ?!? (Aluminum)

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by DHN, Dec 28, 2002.

?

What is your favorite welder brand?

  1. Miller

    35 vote(s)
    51.5%
  2. Lincoln Electric

    14 vote(s)
    20.6%
  3. Hobart

    6 vote(s)
    8.8%
  4. Other

    13 vote(s)
    19.1%
  1. lumpy bumpy
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    lumpy bumpy Junior Member

    Just out of curiosity what would you consider as the maximum training a welder could hope to achieve ?
     
  2. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    lumpy bumpy

    There is no such thing as a "maximum". That is down to the professionalism and drive and passion and curiosity of the welder. That is like asking what is the maximum training for a naval architect, any other professional, or otherwise, could hope for, there isn't a maximum. One learns constantly everyday, or at least should do if open minded. There is no 'upper limit'.

    But, in whatever "job" one does and wishes to be taken seriously there is always a prerequest "minimum". The basics, the foundations that allow the person to learn and progress and to approach problems with an objective and positive attitude. Can't drive a car without a minium, ie a driving licence, but there is no maximum limit. If somone consideres there to be a "maximum" limit in whatever their job is, then they have stopped learning and stopped being objective and consequently stopped being 'professional'.
     
  3. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Hi Ad Hoc, how are you?

    I think that the question by Lumpy is what's the higher certificate that can reach a welder. For the french welders there are 2; very hard to obtain and are only for a very short time (maybe things have changed, I'm a bit obsolete):
    steel nuclear qualification and for the navy also titanium submarine qualification. You must be at the top cream of the welders.
    To give an idea one of my welders was able to weld at a perfect 90 degrees 2 razor blades Gillette (the old very thin ones for mechanical razors) without hole nor distortion. That needs a very precise hand...and an excellent TIG.

    I'm a bit surprised that nobody mentioned the oxy-acety torch, maybe apparently obsolete, but excellent for the reparations of aluminum on the field, when you're in the wind or too far from electricity.
     
  4. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Hi I.V.

    Well, welding 2 razor blades together is quite a feat!

    Had an email sent to me that whooooooosh replied, but gone????

    Said something along the lines of "..i passed some apprentice exam in 1966.."....hmmm..i wonder how they taught pulse and synergic welding back then. Still, that was a one liner and didn't answer any of the Qs in post #37. Well, i would only expect a professional to answer professionally.

    Mind you showing endless pictures or refering to pictures, wow, that really tells me so much, why would i need to ask any Qs....clearly ive been wrong all these years and didn't know, now i'll just show clients and Class/Flag etc "a picture" to justify everything, i really never knew this to be so!

    Great tip....show a picture and your problems go away ;)
     
  5. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Yes this guy was of an unbelievable ability, I kept during years the angle made with the welded razor blades. His passion was air plane modelism in the kind of "with all the 10 thousand rivets and all the details even hidden", and also making extraordinary jewels.

    But a job of "weldor" with the highest qualifications at the Navy in the most technical works was a secure very well paid job...

    For the pics....:rolleyes: first taking pics in a military shipyard or in the design office is not a good idea if you want to keep the job. The concept of "I love me wall" or showroom leaves me cold. And as I have nothing to sell, nor client to recruit I do not see the utility of an photo album, more I do not feel the need to prove something to anybody, nor get approbation.

    And for you, your professional career, known by those who have to know it, speaks by itself. So why to bother? Going further; are pics truly a proof? specially in your domain, and what was mine...

    I had also an Email about a Woosh post. But it seems that the post is gone.
     
  6. murdomack
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    murdomack New Member

    This is very true and reminds me of an incident when I was an apprentice. There was a welding exhibition at The Kelvin Hall in Glasgow and our manager arranged for all the apprentices to visit in groups on different days.

    When my group attended we saw the head of the Fabrication and Welding Department of the local Tech. College at one of the exhibits. One of the apprentices, a very mouthy type, called out to him, "Hey, are you up here to learn how to weld?" He turned round, greeted us all, and then said to the loudmouth, very gently, "Yes, I will be learning to weld until the day I die."

    I work with welders who can tick all the boxes in AD Hoc's list, but there is more to it than that. Like everyone else they tend to end up specialising in one industry or another. Even within the same industries welders gain only experience of the materials and procedures that are used in the places that they work.

    We had to do some repairs to an aluminium workboat a couple of years ago, which was something that we had not done before. We did not have a suitable machine so it was left to our top welding man to order one. He is one of these guys that has every qualification in every metal that has ever been invented. His choice was a TIG unit, I immediately questioned this as I knew that this boat and its sister were to have additions added to the keel at a later date, they were damaging the marine hoses that they worked with, and a MIG would then be best. The repairs were done with the TIG.

    We decided that the modifications would best be handled by the builders and we asked them to order the materials and send them down along with a couple of their men. They asked if we could supply a MIG welder, so I asked them to name their preferred model and we would purchase it and after the job was done, keep it stored for any future work. They have been back a few times since for various repairs and mods and it's always the MIG that gets used.

    They say, "there are welders and welders". This is usually said by the razor blade welders. I've been told by some of them that with a well set up Kempi they can weld silver paper, I'll believe it when I see it.

    My experience has been that it is always better to take the advice of the people who are best acquainted with what you want to do. Qualifications are obviously a requirment, but for Quality Assurance and not for bragging.
     
  7. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    murdomack

    Yes, i too know many that can tick the boxes as a "minimum", and as you say not limited to the list.

    I just wanted Whooosh, who claims to know everything about aluminium welding as he has told me he has worked with aluminium since the 70s, to quantify his experince in more detail, other than look at my pictures, as he doesn't elaborate any futher than this. Since a picture is a picture is a picture...of...well, make up you're own mind.
     
  8. murdomack
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    murdomack New Member

    Nowadays a picture can be very much part of Industrial Engineering, including welding, so I would see it as constructive of anyone to pass on knowledge and information in this way.

    A few weeks ago, we urgently required AWS D1.1 6GR structural welding tests (any thickness) to be completed by two welders in a contractors shop. The Welding Inspector was based Offshore and had a heavy workload and he needed to book a helicopter flight in to see the testing getting done as well, so it was important that he was confident that his time and the oil companies money was not wasted.

    What we did was, I got the welders to set up test-pieces and root, hot-pass and do a couple of fill runs in my presence. I then took my small Sony camera and took two shots of the root in each butt and sent them to the Inspector by email. Based on the pictures he arranged his flights and I made sure the welders were lined up to start from scratch again as soon as he arrived.

    There are lots of other practical applications in our industry where pictures help us to re-look at something we are not sure of without leaving our desks. No project is surveyed without masses of photographs being taken and added to the file. They are sent back and fore around the world before any commitment is made to spend or alter any existing system. They are becoming an almost indispensable supplement to drawings. I have on more than one occasion highlighted errors in the engineers drawings based on what I see in the pictures.


    From Woosh's pictures I can believe that he is very knowledgeable about Aluminium MIG welding. What his qualifications are, or the qualification of his staff, is a question for his clients and their insurers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2009
  9. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Kemppi with two p's :)
     
  10. murdomack
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    murdomack New Member

    I stand corrected, your country can be proud of such a product. :)
     
  11. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Ah, the Kemppi welders...all the good welders I knew were ready to kill to get a Kemppi...

    Yes, we are happily always learning, in every domain. Life would be very boring without the pleasure of learning. Even in the most trivial domain; I tasted yesterday a "pollo adobado en cazuela", a true marvel of equilibrium of taste between the roasted and boiled chicken, the sweetness of the tomato, and the pugnacity of the chile Chipotle. I spent one half of hour with the cooker, a mayan grand mother, a diminute person of maybe 1m40 and 35 Kg and a age oscillating between 70 to 95 years, to listen her detailed explanations of the recipe. Great time. I took notes but I have no hope to reproduce such taste and flavor.

    There is a know-how, born of the experience, that can't be replaced by any diploma or certification, in every domain. The strength of any industry is the equilibrated mix of theory and empiricism.
     
  12. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    You brought it to the point Ilan!
     
  13. lumpy bumpy
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    lumpy bumpy Junior Member

    proof perhaps of the long term damage welding fumes can have .
     
  14. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    "proof perhaps of the long term damage welding fumes can have .":p Lumpy, may you give some development to your statement? Besides I've never been exposed to weld fumes during a long time as I'm not a pro welder...

    Murdomack: a small precision about pics. Pics well made are interesting to appreciate the quality of the job in several domains as weldings (but not an absolute proof; for example weldings may look very nice, with beautiful riddles and to be of bad quality in the point of view of strength), metal work of joinery. Unhappily it's practically impossible to catch on picture the seaworthiness, or economy, or sea-comfort of a boat by pics. I'll add that a good boat, smooth and easy going while running fast is totally unspectacular: almost horizontal hull, no big wave at the bow, no big foam at the stern, no jumpy attitude on the waves. Maybe a trained eye will notice that the surroundings waves look pretty stepped with some white caps and that maybe the boat X is running in a state 4 sea without any spectacular spray or foam. How to appreciate on pics that a boat has an excellent efficiency? or is light and strong? There are domains where pics are not the mean to show the good results.

    As you know the best way to sell a used car with a worn engine is to make it paint with a bright color...
     

  15. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    murdomack

    "..What we did was, I got the welders to set up test-pieces and root, hot-pass and do a couple of fill runs in my presence..."

    So, these welders of yours, they have no Class (or otherwise) certs as a proof of competency?...they are just "some guys who can weld"?

    I take it then that the type of welding you do is not required to satisfy any standard to demonstrate that the weld is sound.

    As for:
    "...From Woosh's pictures I can believe that he is very knowledgeable about Aluminium MIG welding. What his qualifications are, or the qualification of his staff, is a question for his clients and their insurers..."

    Well, you clearly feel that someone who says they ahve been working with aluminium since the 1970s but doesn't know anything about 6082, nor that 5083 can be bought in and size/shape, makes perfect sense and pictures alone are enough validation for someone who claims to be knowledgeable on the subject.

    For any amateur, showing pictures, this is an acceptable demonstration of "look what I can do" by someone who took an exam 40 years ago.

    But for a professional, this is not. Class certs, ie what they are currently coded for, today, not 40 years ago, is a minimal measure of what is their current skill and knowledge.


    However, if you want to see some pictures, just for fun, then why not look at these i took of some down-hand welding tests for my own research. From the distance that the picture was taken the weld looks fine, nothing 'appears' out of the ordinary. But, funny how the human eye cannot see through the weld to highlight the lack of fusion, but maybe your eyes are better than mine and a picture, is enough for you. But, if you think just a picture is enough justification as a measure of their skill/knowledge, that is your prerogative. It is not mine, nor is it to the professionals that I work with, nor the surveyors who sign them off as "quality". A picture only tells half the story...but which half??
     

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