Water based 2 pack under/top coat and deck paint?

Discussion in 'Materials' started by DennisRB, Nov 27, 2015.

  1. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    I am about to paint my top sides and deck. I'm doing much of it bit by bit without a haul out. I saw the system 3 epoxy undercoat, and also pu top coats which are water wash up. No dangerous solvents. I want to roll and not spray. I also dont want to tip. Just roll. So I want the paint to not bubble too much.

    Now are they any good and where can I get something like this in Australia?

    Also what is a good deck grip system? Kiwi grip seems good but expensive and heavy.

    What about norglass weatherfast marine deck paint? Its only a single pack which contains synthetic granules. It seems like a good price. I wonder if single pack paints will lass and I wonder what happens when its time to re coat.

    I want to just use white for everything, maybe the cockpit will be grey non slip to hide dirt, but the rest I just want white for heat reasons.

    The boat is the cat in my pic. 43 foot Crowther.
     
  2. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    Have you looked at boatcraft pacifics aquacote and tredgrip. I mail ordered some stuff from them and they were good to deal with.
     
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  3. missinginaction
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    missinginaction Senior Member

    I cannot speak to the longevity of the water based LPU's. I played around with a sample from System 3 years ago but didn't end up using it.
    I've used solvent based LPU's (Interlux Perfection) exclusively on my boat and am very peased with the results.
    If you use white or light colors you will get great results with the solvent based LPU's without any tipping, they level out very nicely. As for non skid I've always used Interlux Intergrip non-skid additive. A little 1/2 pint can goes a loooong way, just put it in an old salt shaker and sprinkle onto wet Perfection and you're good to go.
    I understand your concerns regarding the solvents but my understanding is that it's the isocyanates that you need to be concerned about and they do not become airborne when you roll the paint on.
    Read up, follow the instructions to the letter (especially surface prep and priming) and you'll get a great finish. I hear horror stories about these paints often. I always find that people don't prep properly, don't follow the instructions and especially try to apply the paint too heavily or thin the paint too much. The expression "less is more" is true with these paints. Thin coats are best.
    Wear a decent 1/2 mask respirator and gloves and work carefully. You'll be fine.
    I'm strictly an amateur but swear by these paints. Pricey? Sure, but they hold up. More time boating less time painting. I understand that they're not for everyone but you really do get what you pay for.
    In the pictures below all you see is Snow White Perfection. Rolled and brushed along the trim. Not tipped and not sprayed. The boat was painted outside under an a-frame type cover (tarps).
     
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  4. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    Pity the op didn't have the courtesy to reply. I would
    Be interested to know what these waterbased 2 epoxy paints are like myself. In my waterproofing business we used 2 pack water based epoxy coatings with great success. I imagine the paints should be just as good.
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    These aren't really water based epoxies, but have emulsifiers to permit water clean up. In fact, if you just place a brush under a water tap, the paint doesn't go anywhere. You have to use soap and scrub. Technically it's the activator (hardener) that has the emulsifiers in it.

    I've used and like the System 3 "Yacht Primer" which is what I suspect you're talking about. In fact, it will cure if fully submersed in water, in spite of it being a "waterborne" product (it's a moisture cure product). It sands well, but you should sand it within 72 hours or it gets a lot whole harder to sand afterward. It's compatible with most paints. It does shrink up a bit, so don't topcoat for a few days, to let it cure out.
     
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  6. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    Sorry for late replies guys. I appreciate the responses. Just been busy buying paint, working and studying etc and wanted to make a detailed response with links etc :) I will be sure to post results here too.

    I ended up buying Australian made solvent based Norglass products. Half the price of international and I had a review from someone who has used both and says its as good if not better.

    The colours for the deck are Arctic white and the rest of the boat will be Ivory. They are both just slightly off whites. The current grey is too hot to stand on.

    Have you seen the trend in cars these days where the paint is a satin finish? I think it looks great and wonder if it would be a mistake to try to replicate this in a boat. I wonder if a flattening agent would mean future repairs would be easlier to blend or harder? Will this satin finish hide or accentuate repairs and blemishes?

    Shipshape primer-undercoat. The ultimate high-build performance coating to obliterate background irregularities and provide filling properties prior to coating with single or 2 pack finishes. Suitable for areas of continuous immersion and osmosis repairs. Commonly used as a primer-undercoat and as a topcoat in the bilge areas of boats because of its satin gloss finish.

    http://www.norglass.com.au/products/shipshape-primer-undercoat

    Northane Gloss
    The premium two-pack aliphatic linear polyurethane for durability and fade resistance. Excellent chemical, waterproofing and weathering properties. Ideal for refurbishing most surfaces and where a superior long lasting coating is required. Home, leisure, commercial, industry and suitable as a food grade coating.

    http://www.norglass.com.au/products/northane-gloss

    Weatherfast Deck Paint
    A unique slip resistant coating incorporating plastic granules to provide a uniform paint film for traction when wet. The profile also facilitates easy cleaning. For use on fibreglass, steel, concrete, timber and aluminium decks.

    http://www.norglass.com.au/products/weatherfast-deck-paint
     
  7. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    Missing in Action your boat looks great. But with a rolled finish it always does in pics. :p Is there much stipple close up? What about hairs or foam stuck in the finish? Do you have any tips to avoid that as I have heard that it can be an issue.

    What are the dangers of over thinning? How much is the max? I know it says 10% but I keep hearing up to 25% in the real world for spraying? When rolling in the heat I thought maybe extra thinners would help smooth the finish and I could just put an extra coat on? What would be the pitfalls of trying this?

    I want a decent looking boat, but I dont care if it is not super shiny from 6 feet away. Right now its a total mess. I want a finish I can cruise with and live aboard without fear of real world minor damage but I dont want to devalue it too much com compared to a spray job.
     
  8. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Dennis, the cut for spray operations is dependant on a few things, like environmental conditions, the equipment used, etc, but the general rule is just enough to remove stipple.

    Hairs and foam mean you're not prepping the roller or brush or using the wrong kind. If using a hair roller, run some tape over the roller before it sees paint, which will remove loose hairs. There are solvent tolerant foam brushes.

    If you're working in hot conditions, work at night and/or use a "wetting" agent, such as Penetrol. Most of the higher end paint formulation will have a tropical wetting agent or hardener available. Excess solvent will not help the finish, probably make things worse as the paint loses too much surface tension to lay down without sagging or running. It can also affect the gloss, as can too much wetting agent.

    If rolling and tipping in hot conditions, work smaller areas, so you can maintain a wet edge. Most of this is just familiarity with the products and equipment. You don't just fill the gun, roller or brush and go to the work. You test it first on a vertical surface to see if it's to thick, thin, if you can hold a wet edge, check stipple, etc. This means you might pour your mix into the cup, but after the quick tests, you need more thinner, flow promoter or less (so you add more paint), etc. Once you've nailed down the right combination, you make a note of what is what (5% of this, 10% or that, etc.) and start you squirt or roller session.

    You can usually buff and polish most imperfections, though heavy stipple will need to be knocked down with a fine wet sand, then using polishing pads, brought up to a smoothness level where you're satisfied.
     
  9. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Not too sure about using Penetrol in your LPU.
    Flattening agents were sometimes used on steel boats back when popular for cruising boats, I quite like the look but I think cant rework/cut the surface so gotta be right off the gun... or roller.
    My Dad has used Norglass & was happy with it, some boats at work use it too, actually seems more durable than brightsides or 665 from the other supplier which we use too.
    We used some aquacoat a few years back on a project... some sheilds, cant say I was impressed but held up ok, low on gloss and cover though especially in the yellow we used.

    Jeff
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Nope, Penetrol is for straight and some modified alkyds, not the polyurethanes (generally), but there are flow promoters for these types of paints too, as well as other additives.
     
  11. missinginaction
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    missinginaction Senior Member

    Dennis, regarding your questions:

    1. As you've probably heard a million times painting is 90% surface prep. That really is true. The flat panels in those photos are plywood coated and sheathed with 4 oz fiberglass cloth. As the pros here taught me, at least 3 coats.

    2. After you're satisfied with the surface you need to primer. I just used Interlux Epoxy Prime Coat, the recommended primer for Perfection. This is a two part coating and the "paint" part is really more like a paste. Follow the instructions and thin 25% with the recommended solvent. You'll be fine. Apply thin coats as recommended in the instructions.

    3. As far as the finish coat is concerned, as PAR and others will tell you thinning is really dependent on temperature and there is no substitute for experience. That said less is generally best, especially to start. I try not to paint when it is too cool but in colder temps I might thin Perfection just a bit. Interlux recommends up to 10% but I've never used that much thinner. I've painted in warm weather and then thin only a splash if it's in the seventies (less than 5%) and not at all in the 80's and above up to around 90. As a rule Perfection finish coat requires little to no thinning depending on the weather. I don't paint when it's damp.
    Looking at your post above I'm doing exactly the opposite of what you're thinking. Thinning a little tends to improve flow when its cooler. When it's hot just a splash (1%?) to no thinner at all works best for me. Since pot life on this stuff is quite long you can mix up some paint and by starting with little to no thinner, sneak up on the amount you might want by mixing in small quantities if necessary as you go. Remember too that my experience is strictly roller or brush, I have no clue about spraying.

    4. Foam and shedding brushes? I get my rollers from Joe Merton and I've never had any problems with foam in the paint. I use strictly short nap foam rollers, solvent resistance is key, I use disposable chip brushes and they DO shed a few bristles. I keep a pick handy to remove them while the paint is wet. I also try to remove as many loose bristles as possible before I start. I use packing tape to pull out the loose bristles and rinse the brush with acetone before I start painting, it dries quickly. Are there a few bristles in my paint job? Yep, I missed one here and there but I'm the only one who knows......I think.

    http://www.mertons.com/Tools/foamrollers.html

    I'm not a chemist but I'm amazed at how well these paints self level. Remember, less is more. Wayyyyy less than you're used to if painting a house is your experience. After two coats of primer you may still see some darker areas showing. Don't worry, apply two or three thin coats of Perfection and they'll be gone.

    As others have said it's a good idea to practice a little on some small items or scrap until you're comfortable, you can mix up small amounts of paint to do this, so it won't cost you much.

    Regards,

    MIA
     
  12. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    Great thread. I have to paint soon too. Collecting some excellent info here.
     
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  13. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    Thanks guys. MIA, seems you have the opposite prob with heat and cold. I live in a hot area with blasting sun. Do you need to reduce the thinner due the viscosity of the paint being thinner in the heat?

    I will need to contact Norglass to see if they have any flow promoters. I need an Australian seller of good foam rollers in bulk. Regular chandlery pricing is prohibitive for a job as big as mine.

    How many coats of each paint are you using? Is you primer also a high build?

    My boat is already built and painted. Its just the old paint is totally finished. Lots of missing and flaking areas.
     
  14. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    How are you going to paint this without hauling it out or letting it dry out on the beach etc? Rolling the paint is fraught with difficulties if your not a professional at it or have lots of experience in doing it. Spraying is not that difficult, just get some fold out plastic which comes on a roll, comes in varying widths upto several meters and has 1 edge already with masking tape applied to it. They sell it at bunnings or any wholesale paint supplier for the tradies - they use it for masking up houses when they build them. Roll it out everywhere and when everythings covered, spray away!

    This could be acheived on a low tide all day beaching session provided you have access to plenty of 240v power to run the compressor as they run non stop when painting... use a 10L pressure pot and mix up 6L at a time to cover 1 of your topsides in 1 batch. Could do your cabin too in another batch, then start the other side. Start on the windward side and work your way down wind. If your in an isolated area, the overspray wont bother anyone... For the deck paint, this is easily rolled on after the shiny stuff is done, mask out the edges and start rolling, this is the easy part of the mission..
     

  15. missinginaction
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    missinginaction Senior Member

    I have found that as temperatures increased I needed to use less thinner. Based on my experience Dennis, you're correct. Higher temperature = lower viscosity so less need to thin. That said I only make adjustments on the finish coats of Perfection, I just thin the Epoxy Primekote 25% regardless of the temperature. Interlux makes 2 types of solvent, 2316N and 2333N. For rolling or brushing you'll want the 2333N as it is slower to evaporate.

    Generally I've just followed the Interlux directions. Two coats primer and two coats finish. Occasionally I've done three finish coats, very thin. And yes, the primer is easily sandable but if you've done a good prep job you shouldn't have much sanding to do.

    One other comment. I've had great luck with these 2 part LPU's but I have always used them on new parts that were properly prepped. If I were using them on old wood that has been previously painted I'd clean the wood up, sand off all the old finish and then paint. You can get information on painting previously finished surfaces at www.yachtpaint.com

    Follow the manufacturers recommendations "to the letter" when you start and you will not go wrong with these products. Good luck, MIA

    Regards, MIA
     
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