Wanting to build a stitch and glue gheenoe-like craft

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by DentonDon, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    Hi everyone. I have been reading on here for a while because I'm about to build my first boat. I have been given a 48 lb trolling motor for free and was thinking of building a square transom canoe to go with it. I was going to go the stitch and glue plywood route. But I have discovered the gheenoe and now have some design questions.

    Considering that my ultimate purpose for this craft is to take my small family out on the lake/creek and fish for crappie/white bass...
    This craft must also be light enough for two people to put on top of my matrix (hatchback).

    Which would be more stable, a 14 foot gheenoe design or a 14 foot square back canoe like the coleman skanoe? My guess is the wider gheenoe?...
    Which would be more feasible to build with the stitch and glue approach?

    Sorry to sound like such a newb, I just know that I can good feedback and direction here.

    Thanks for any and all advice!
     
  2. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    I'm also considering the possibility of making it sectional to help with storage space since I live in an apartment.

    Something similar to this... http://www.nestawayboats.com/page4.htm

    thoughts?
     
  3. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    Don; The gheenoe and similar boats are round chine affairs which is not something you can do with S&G techniques. You can certainly build a boat with flat sections with S&G. The simplest ones are merely flat bottomed pirogue types. They work very well and will usually have a little bit more initial stability than the round chined types. Hard chines will cost a wee bit in speed but not enough to notice with the troller power.

    Your choice of boats should give some consideration to the size of your family, both in number of persons and sum of occupants weights and gear that you might carry along. This weight estimate is to include the weight of the motor and the battery.

    You can easily build a 14 or 16 footer that will be light enough to load on the car top without getting hernias. I suspect that you can build a flattie that will weigh less than a Gheenoe of similar length. If the boat is to be a break apart type, the weight will go up some because you will need some stronger, thus heavier, framing at the break point. This might add a few pounds but not enough to change your mind.
     
  4. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    So I'm definitely going with the portable nesting design. I plan on glassing the bottom and was wondering how much resin I'll need to glass one layer of cloth on the bottom of this 14 foot canoe?
     
  5. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Depends on resin viscosity and number of coats to fill the weave which varies with cloth weight. As a guide stripper canoe glassed inside and out will take about 1.5 gallons - maybe less for ply which might be less absorbent. Scale down in proportion to the area you plan to glass and add allowance for the build, which will need more for a nesting type. I find marine ply bearing the BS1088 or BS1066 mark is no longer evidence of quality, look for Lloyds certificate or a known good source like Joubert. BTW if you're planning on using with non-marine (hardware store type) ply why bother with glass - it's not likely to last long.

    As far as design is concerned I don't know much about the Gheenoe but it seems to be intended for more power than a trolling motor would provide; a regular canoe design on the other hand will move along smartly with a troller.
     
  6. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    Well yes, I'm definitely aiming more towards a conventional square back canoe after looking at plans.
    I do plan on using "non-marine" plywood because I have limited myself to a $100 budget on this project. Thats why I asked about the resin so I can more accurately price what I'm looking for. I will most likely be using something similar to 1/4" luan from Lowes which covered with glass cloth should last roughly 3-5 years. Thats all I want for now...
    Thanks!
     
  7. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    $100 won't cover the cost of the cloth and resin.

    I'd guess the cheapest boat would be a box boat covered in canvas and painted or PVC.

    I'm considering a freighter canoe tubular aluminum frame covered in a heavy PVC material, looks like a very quick build and economical. I'd like to have it in half as well but not sure that's a good idea at 22-24'. But at 16' it makes sense having 8' sections, doing that for a smaller boat seems like a waste of materials without any upside benefit.

    I wouldn't break a 14' boat in half, you could carry that on a micro car top, weight should be less than 35 pounds, IMO.
     
  8. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    The reason for a sectional nesting design is a complete lack of storage space. But you're right about the cost with glass and resin.
    I figure the wood will be about $45 (3 sheets of lauan), and the glue ($15) and tape ($9) (http://www.portableboatplans.com/tape-and-glue-process.php) gets me to $70. Maybe I'll just be super nuts and tape the all of the outside of the hull and paint over it. That plus a paint finish ($20) puts me at a $90 flat bottom square back canoe that will last me about 3-5 years.
     
  9. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Don, I'm not an engineer but I've been on our lakes and rivers for over 55 years.

    My thought is that I would carry swim fins to go out very far out in that boat in a lake like Toledo Bend. It's something to use from a mooring to shore, to say general purpose in that marketing ad is a stretch IMO.

    That is a molded foam filled boat, unless you're into vacuum bagging it will be hard to duplicate that boat and you'd probably be ahead just buying it.

    I'd bet there is a grove like a T&G where the plastic hull fits in at the joint or keel and is attached at or near the gunnels as I don't see any lower connections possible with the solid foam hull to bolt it together, perhaps at the sole or floor. I may be wrong.

    Don't know your intentions or use or your waters, but define those issues and then look for a take down boat. There are backpack boats, inflatables, tube boats, box boats and canoes that can break down, some smaller than that to go in a closet.

    My concern with that is the strength of the sections, it won't sink I'm sure, but some wise guy in his 50' SunDancer trimmed up throwing off a large wake would concern me just sitting dead in the water.
     
  10. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Check out the Quick Canoe, flat bottom, sides. I'd forget the glass tape and some glue and perhaps the paint and cover it with in PVC or a canvas painter's tarp and pint that. I'd use heavier ply with this too.

    Last weekend some teenagers were playing with an inflatable bed and a sheet of ply tied together on Table Rock lake! Not a bad platform if you're not easily embarrassed, LOL
     
  11. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    whoa... please elaborate concerning the pvc... Are you saying adhere pvc sheets to the outside? And how exactly would one cover it with a painters tarp? Some sort of tacking method?
    And the Quick canoe is very similar to what I'm planning. In fact its almost the exact same thing but I'm hard set on a square transom to hook up a trolling motor (one I got for free... )
    I'm almost finished drawing up plans and will upload them here for critique.

    btw I was planning on putting some flotation in the stern and transom compartments.
     
  12. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    You said stitch and glue, I took off on skin on frame, but yes, the material is tightly wrapped over the hull frame. Skin on frame can be quick and cheap, good designs are very seaworthy for small craft. SOF freighter canoes are used in the Artic Ocean, were talking ice there and the Yukon River.

    I have a swimming pool cover that is a rip-stop PVC, thick stuff that I'm wanting to use and seems more than suitable. That I might glue it to a hull, if it were lighter fabric I wouldn't as it would need to be replaced at some point.

    Hypolan (SP?) or a rubberized material is also used, canvas and even cotton cloth with glue but I wouldn't go there. Any material used for inflatable boats is probably good for the SOF.

    I'm studying the SOF methods. My initial thought was that they would lack the durability for a real boat, I'm finding that isn't really true. There is a degree of flex that can absorb a strike that could damage other boats, being lighter has advantages. My next concern was beaching, from what I see is with some common sense and care, like not dragging it over a rocky beach, materials hold up pretty well. At 14-16' they weigh in under 35 pounds, just pick it up and carry it.

    I'd have to guess too that a good PVC source would be a swimming pool company that has taken out old pool liners, the bottoms are pretty thick. Pool covers are another cheap source. Sign companies use a heavy grade for billboards. I understand that some have used blue tarps, but I'd plan on replacing those every season.

    Well done I don't think they are bad looking, some look sharp, they won't look like a glass boat and certainly not beautiful like inlaid wood, but we aren't talking 6 grand for a canoe.

    Look up Jeremy Harris and his tubular framed boat, pretty neat rig.
     
  13. DentonDon
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    DentonDon Junior Member

    Ah, I see... haha Well I will personally stick with my stitch and glue plywood plans as I need it to hold about 600 lbs. You mentioned the quick canoe, well there is an "electric" model which is even closer to what I'm going for... http://www.duckworksbbs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=oz-QCE-p
    Only my plans are for a 14 footer with 42" beam and a 32" transom width.

    I know that a flat bottom will be much simpler to build but I'd really like to make it more of a planked design similar to this 12'6" outboard motor canoe (http://www.makeacanoe.com/motorcanoes.htm#OUTBOARD) to make it a bit more maneuverable.
     
  14. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    Wave,
    you are going to need reinforcement on any PVC you use skin on frame. Straight PVC will creep and not hold tension -no pools or pool covers. The successful SOF boats you see are composite skinned -a stiff strong woven fiber material sealed with a softer pliable material.
     

  15. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    All good, just a comment as to the ease of getting on the water. Freighter canoes take on 2,000 pounds and more. Skin on frame has little to do with displacement, cover hulls would have the same displacement as the hull, the covering is irrelevant to its ability to carry a load. But I understand the preference.

    Skyak, very good point! What I have is reinforced, there is a weave in it and embedded straps. When this 32'X18' or so pool cover is deployed and stretched over the pool you can walk on it. I don't know what gauge it is, as I mentioned in other posts, the cover weighs about 130 pounds or so, it's not light weight stuff.

    As to using it as a cover, I would think if a sheet of PVC were applied over a wood boat it would only be keeping water from seeping through joints, not really a structural matter. I'm sure you're right on a light frame, certainly can't use trash bags.

    I'm still searching for more info, I have seen pictures of large canoes SOF but not finding much details. I'm also not finding a limit as to this method being suitable, what's the larges SOF boat?
     
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