Vo70

The guys doing the CF structure engineering come from F1, not yachting. We've all seen what happens when Farr does the CF structure design.

 

Really? Please give us specific examples of failures of Farr Designed CF Structures. Exactly what was the failure mode and what was the design inaccuracy that caused it?

 

Whitbread 60 Hulls delaminating?

Hulls and ring frames flexing causing ram failures and "barn door" failures on VO70's?

These are associated with Farr designs.

If Farr did not design these boats, I stand corrected. I know what I've read and seen. Is the published information in error?

I would say that a structure that fails under what are normal sailing conditions shows a lack of understanding of something. It could be the material properties, or the loads involved, or the manufacturing process, if it breaks under normal conditions there is a fault. It is rare that a CF component of a F1 car fails under normal conditions. Jordan had a front suspension part fail a couple of years ago (Brazil 2003?), since then I can't remember a structural failure under normal conditions. I could be wrong.

The information about BMW F1 engineers working on CF structures and specifically hull flex comes from a sailmaker that visited the Oracle/BMW design team.

I'm sure good designs have come from Farr. However, the press they are getting has started to paint a different picture recently.

 

Correct me if I am mistaken, but i thought Whitbread 60's were made of Kevlar because Carbon Fibre was outlawed due to high cost.

 

You are probably correct. I should have said Composite Structures not limited it to Carbon. My bad.

 

hey guys I see alott of farr bashing here, but I gotta ask , why was his design chosen and not yours?

 

Because a lot of the teams assumed that it the VO 70 was taking the VO60 to the next level and since Farr had the most experience with the 60's, then obviously the logical choice would be to use Farr for the the 70's.

ABN AMRO, on the other hand, figured "Hey its an entirely new design, we could grab a relatively unknown designer (JuanK) and get lucky". And some might say they did get lucky, but others would say that JuanK knew the whole time that the loads encountered would be very different than what previous Open class boats have experienced.

I don't have any problem with Farr, but i think a lot of people have gotten annoyed with them because they(Farr) havent accepted that part of the early attrition rate was their fault. And consequently they keep denying fault, or they issue press releases that obscure what is important.

FARR BOATS IN THE VOLVO OCEAN RACE

Telefonica movistar- Leg 1, hydraulic ram failure followed by internal structure failure. -Now, the hydraulic failure could conceivably be Farr's fault, if they underspec'd the rams, but even if they did that part correctly, the reason Movistar dropped out is Farr's fault, and that would be because the carbon "shelf" on which rams were mounted were not up to the job of holding the keel independently, while the Volvo Open 70 Rule clearly states THAT EACH RAM MUST BE ABLE TO OPERATE THE KEEL INDEPENDENT OF THE OTHER RAM. So apparently the rams could, but the structure couldn't support the peak loading on a single point. The main bulkhead also started to collapse.

PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN-the bomb door design is a bit stupid in my opinion, but that doesnt matter right now. The "doors" failed and nearly sunk the boat, and the Pirates also had the same main bulkhead failure that Movistar had. They have also had the problem of cracks in the keel support structure (leg 2). Then they have also had hydraulic problems, which may or may not be Farr's fault(most likely not).

BRASIL 1- she's been pretty well of, except for the minor problem of the entire back of the boat threatening to fall off. That was easily repaired, and then she set off again, only to lose her mast (for which i guess we can bash southern spars.)

ERICSSON- mainly hydraulic problems, such as leaking fluid and such. Most likely not Farr's fault by any stretch of the imagination. But she is very slow on the current leg for some reason....probably someone will claim that they overbuilt the boat too much.

 

do you guys think that too much emphasis or creedance is put into carbon fiber or should I ask ;is it the material of the future ?

 

Yes, it is light and strong!
No, prices will increase since supply is not going to grow compared to demand.

But than again, this is just my humble opinion and I am not an insider in the buiz.

 

I don´t know about that. There are some cruising boats that now are made in Carbon...and they are not a lot more expensive.

 

Vega,

yachts like Shipman and even smaller cruising yachts are indeed build in carbon. And not just the hulls, but masts, booms, wheels, tillers and many other parts are build in carbon. Not only the marine industry, but al sorts of products are being produced using these fibres. Whilst I have not yet obtained sufficient information about production of the fibres and the way to use them I do know that not all carbonfibres are usable in the marine industry. With more and more functions being discovered demand only will increase for carbon. Even with a slightly increase in supply, will there still be an relative increase in demand. The very basics of economy come around the corner and tell us that higher demand resuts in higher prices when supply doesn't change.

At the moment (including probably some 3-5 years from now) supply is still high enough to cope with the demand. The big issue is that supply is more or less limited.

Or so have I understood my lectures and extra reading.

 

movistar severe leak

movistar reported sinking but have updated that they are going to round the Cape and put into Argentina for repairs-bomb bay doors again!
Volvo Ocean Race 2005 - 2006
Address:http://www.volvooceanrace.org/news/article/2006/march/0302movistar/index.aspx

 

As I understand it some of the ram failures were mechanical not hydraulic. The ram end fittings breaking may have been due (at least in part) to flex in the hull between the keep pivot ant the ram mounts. If that is the case the ram failures fall on the Farr doorstep also.

As Lorsail posted. Movistar has had another keel pivot door failure, almost sank the boat this time.

 

You didn't mention slow designs compared to the competition. That's where BFA definitely missed in this edition of the VOR. If they had a more stable design they didn't convince any of the teams to go for it.

The bomber doors issue is definitely their poor design. No doubt about that. I mentioned the stupidity of this type of design back in the 16 foot racer discussing way before the VOR boats were built. The rule should never have been written to allow the pivot to be anywhere but normal to the outer skin. Imagine the silliness of having a watertight bulkhead forward if you can have the middle of the boat open to the sea?

I guess you are privy to the testing sessions of all the F1 teams, to know what CF parts break and how. It is a fact that something breaks in every F1 race, although not necessarily composites. Is it Adrian Newey's fault when a wrist pin breaks?

Sadly the VOR teams didn't have test sessions. Most didn't even have work up time. Maybe they should not be racing without full testing session. I surely would not be on one of those boats in the southern ocean. The one team that did get started early and did testing spent a lot of time fixing things and now have a reliable and fast boat. But even they had to rebuild the front of their boat at the last stop due to delam/core issues.

As for Press, maybe you haven't been reading it all. Looks like most of the structural issues have not been due to BFA after all. Deck crack problem seems to have been from an area that was improperly laminated and repaired by the builder before the start. Were the secondary bonding problems in the structure due to poor workmanship by Bruce or Russell? But mentioning those facts wouldn't suit your purposes, would they?

 

Or maybe the hull flex was due to the binding of the pivots? It seems strange that the hull flex might be ruining the rams from on mfg., but not from another?