Varnish on top of paint?

Discussion in 'Materials' started by andysailor, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. andysailor
    Joined: May 2017
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    andysailor Junior Member

    I'm planning to paint the floor inside my boat with a 2 component paint, single stage. The floor will be painted with a white color 2 inches wide and thinner 1/4 inch stripes between. To protect it I also plan to put a couple of varnish coats (2 component) on top of it.

    I will sand between each coat.

    Anything in particular I should have in mind? Should I paint the whole floor white and mask it afterwards or should I mask it from the beginning?
     
  2. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    I have a few concerns about your plan.
    1 painted floors are typically slick when wet. Varnish especially so
    2 Varnish quickly yellows. The yellowing is less noticeable or desirable over wood. It could be quite noticeable over your white under coat.
    3. Two part paint is usually has a very hard surface. Single part varnish would flake off of it.


    Two component paint alone should last a long time. If you want a clear coat on top, use a two stage paint/clear system. The color and clear are formulated to be applied in quick succession so they chemically bond together. Your plan allows for only mechanical bonding.

    Masking;
    Painting solid then adding stripes is quicker and easier, but results in raised stripes.

    Masking and counter masking the stripes may contribute to a smoother surface. It will take much greater effort and consume significantly more masking materials. There's a likelihood of having masking errors that leave voids along the color separation boundry (over masking of stripes) or zones where the second color is on top of first (under masking). Even perfectly masked, one color could be applied thicker than the other, resulting in an undulating surface.

    Either way all masking ought to be removed before the paint fully sets. Not an easy task on floors. How do you plan to reach the middle?

    Good luck
     
  3. andysailor
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    andysailor Junior Member

    Thanks for you reply!

    1)About your concern about slick floor....you are right! The green thin stripe we are making non skid.

    2)Varnish is yellowing...Yeah...I was a little bit concerned about that...But one thing...When I said the floor was to be painted white...it's more light greyish. So maybe doesn't will notice it as much. Or?

    3) You might have misunderstood, I mentioned SINGLE STAGE, not singel component varnish. If you are not familiar with that expression, it's when there only is one paint to put on...not any clear coat.....and true....I could have gone with a two stage with more coats of clear instead.....

    Is it better I put down some more coats of the paint, instead of applying a two component varnish on top of it?

    To reach the middle? Well, I will not paint the lids the same day...so I can walk on the lids.


    One question to another....I painted some countertops with 2 component paint...but Im a little bit afraid to damage em. Were also thinking of putting 2 component varnish on top of these to protect it more. Countertops are green.
     
  4. Deering
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Deering Senior Member

    Will this floor be located inside an enclosed cabin or out in the elements?
     
  5. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    I am very experienced with single vs multiple component and single vs multiple stage coatings.
    Varnish by definition is always single pack and single stage. There are other clear coats that can be multi component or multi stage. They could be urathane, acrylic or lacquer, but not varnish.

    The multi clears typically yellow far less than varnish does. One inch of fresh wet clear will appear a similar color as a proper coat a year old. Three inches -- three years. Put a paint chip in the bottom of a pail of clear for a preview.

    Opaque coatings usually wear better than clears of simular resin systems.

    Clearcoating over non-skid will reduce its effectiveness.

    Touching up paint that has been clear coated is much much more difficult than touching up single stage paint.
     
  6. andysailor
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    andysailor Junior Member

    Inside a cabin
     
  7. andysailor
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    andysailor Junior Member

    Ok. wrong by me to call it varnish!
    It's a urethane I mean.

    The grey paint I have already bought...So it will be painted with a singel stage paint.

    I could put som non skid in the clear on top of it ...If I choose to go with a clear.

    What would you do? Just go with only the paint...or should I apply some coats clear urethane too?
     
  8. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    As an industrial painter, I have jump thru hoops keeping"paint" off of floors. It would be difficult for my to choose to paint one now.

    My advice to you:

    Practice masking stripes on sample boards that ate at least two feet square. Cheep paint will suffice for the first attempts. Make a full 4x8 foot sample with the good stuff before starting the actual floor. You will be amazed by what you learn not to repeat from the first four practice panels. Try both masking techniques previously mentioned.

    Will the raised stripes be acceptable to you?
    Is the amount of texture in the non-skid acceptable to you?
    How was sanding between the stripes?
    Does clear fill in too much non-skid?
    Does clear sufficiently even out raised stripes?
    Dirty and test clean mustard, mud, motor oil, ... , off of sample.

    I have used "no wax floor cleaner and polish" to protect painted floors. It has to be renewed weekly as part of the cleaning schedule. It also add some traction.

    Never under estimate the value of large test pieces

    Good luck
     
    ondarvr likes this.
  9. Howlandwoodworks
    Joined: Sep 2018
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    Location: Columbia MO

    Howlandwoodworks John Howland

    Some finishes have a maximum thickness, if exceeded they will become brittle and can chip or unzip.
     
  10. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Do you mean mils? Three inch thick paint seems like a lot.
     
  11. Howlandwoodworks
    Joined: Sep 2018
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    Howlandwoodworks John Howland


    That is a neat trick to preview what a transparent finishes will look like now and in the future.
    Not all paints and finishes are what our grandfather used, It is a art and science for todays industrial painter and not strait froward if you want to break the rules. Some paints/finishes are witches brews and not compatible with one another other.
    My first rule in painting/finishes is to break no rules for this point forward. The instruction of the side of the can will tell you what you can do, but will not tell you what you can't do. The learning curve can be long and costly on catalyzed systems.
    On my furniture for 20 years I used Krystal® post-catalyzed conversion varnish finishing system (always some dam exception to the rule) and on some stairs and handrails in my home 12 years ago, it has held up as well as the polyurethane that I put on the white oak floors, at twice the cost as polyurethane but can be sprayed.
    I with blueknarr test samples would be good advise and I stay away from painting old floors that could have unknown contaminants on them that could effect the bonding ability.
    Then again its just a floor and nothing last for ever.
    Best of luck to you with all your endeavors,
     
  12. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    Inches is correct. Not to be applied that thickly, but as an indicator of the color shift of aging clear coat.

    Most clear coats have a slight tint. The old traditional oil based recipes where yellowish to orangish. Urathan can be green while acrylic is blue. Modern recipes have less tint.

    As it ages, the tint usually becomes more pronounced.

    The tint also is more noticeable the thicker the coating.

    Looking thru several inches can indicate how a thin coating will appear in the future.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  13. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Do you have a photo of any paint job you have done where the coating is 4 inches thick? I am really curious.
     
  14. ondarvr
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    ondarvr Senior Member

    I don’t think people are understanding the 3” method of testing for future color.

    We always discourage clears from being used over whites, and some other bright, bold and light colors.

    Open the container of most clears and they don’t look “clear” at all. It’s just that in a very thin film they don’t impart enough color to cause a problem.

    As they age the color normally yellows, now the yellow tint may be very noticeable.

    Blues and other tints may be mixed into the clear to hide the yellow/amber tint of most resin bases.

    The 3” in the can view can give an idea of what the clear may look like in the future.


    I would avoid mixing and matching brands and types of coatings unless you’ve done extensive testing to ensure they are compatible long term.

    There’s nothing worse than a clear coat peeling off or radically changing color over an otherwise good paint job.
     

  15. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    Gonzo,

    I respect you and usually agree with what you post.

    BUT

    Re-read my posts carefully.
    I never said to apply paint inches thick.
    I DO claim that looking thru several inches of unapplied clear coat gives an indication of future color shift.
     
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