Transverse frame calculation

I just checked the current tables for Boat Pasage. Max 6 knots, which, along with 8 knots of boat speed, makes 14 knots, altho the boat was overpowered with a huge dieseal ,which could have made 9 knots.
So where is the other 36 you claim had the same problem? Silence on that claim?
I just visited a 55 footer which had 3/8th hull plate which is what I would recommend for an origami 60 footer. A good comparison of impact resistance is a high powrered rifle shot. A 308 ,which will barely shoot thru 3/8th mild steel, only if it is solidly supported, will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir.
So would anyone consider a cold molded ,framless 60 footer made out of 23 inch thick douglas fir, too weak?

 

I think you just made "the other team's" point.

A 23 inch douglass fir is MANY times stiffer than a 3/8 inch steel plate in the direction of the normal to the surface.

[EDIT] If you want to verify this... Find a suitable tree... push on it... now get a 3/8 inch bar of rebar or plate.... push on it. AMAZING IT BENDS!!! The TWO-FOOT wide telephone pole.... not so much.

 

Work out the underwater area of each section, and plot the areas on a graph, on cardboard. Then cut out the graph and balance it on a pencil . That is the lonigtudinal centre of buoyancy, which should be the LCG when the hull is balanced properly, according to Herreschoffs methods.
While you are at it , do the same with each section heeled 25 degrees . If the LCG either stays the same or moves slighly foreward you can have a well balanced hull . If the centere of buopyancy moves aft ,the hull will always be skittish on the helm and hard to balance. Harisson Butler was the first to figure this out, which many north american designers have not figured out to this day. British and European designers have a better understanding of hull balance. This is something Kinney clearly didn't understand ,as I found out the hard way, singlehanding one of his deigns acros s the Pacific, in my early 20's .
This has made my boats extremely light on the helm, enabling them to self steer without windvane or autopilot, with the wind on the quarter ,sometimes.
A model with 3/16th plywood hull and 1/8th plywood deck, the same as the steel thickness, has the same vertical centre of gravity as the steel shell, if it has the same ballast ratio. When I put it in the water ,upside down, it rights itself immediately. Interior , machinery and belongings are almost all well below the vertical centre of buoyancy , adding greatly to the righting moment in the inverted position. Adduing a wheel house also helps a lot.
When the model floats where you want it to, you can balance it on a pencil and you get the LCB, which should match your calculated point. You can also do that with a finished hull for a triple check.If that matches ther hul will float perfectly level when launched. You can bet a case of gin on that.
Take it to the grocer and have him weigh it on his digital scale. Then multiply that number by the cube of the scale and you have the weight of the finished boat, a double check on your calculations.
As I point out in my book, there are some traditional ideas which are great , others are disasters. Some modern ideas are great, others passing fads which have no place on a boat. The best boats are a combination of old and new , judged not by what era they are from, but by their own merits. Getting either locked into traditional, or modern, leaves one rejecting some great ideas from both, and lessening the overall quality of the boat.
My designs are traditional in some aspects, and modern in others, based on the merits of each.

 

I'm talking about resistance to holing ,something your 1/8th plate with a lot of framing, fails miserably on. Try breaking the 3/8th flat bar.

 

My brother also raced. He told of many times of cars disintegrating , and the driver walking away. What saved them? The roll cage. What was the roll cage made of? Metal, not composites.

 

No one can control what an owner does when he takes over the project . A designer can only advise.

 

Man, you make Turkey sound so worth sailing halfway around the world to visit. Makes me wanna leave right now.
I have some great Turkish friends, good people, But I wouildn't expect the people I meet anywhere to be representative of all the people in their home country.

 

Copyright infringement can lead to civil action, which can lead to liens against the property of anyone involved in posting or failure to delete copyright infringements, including the assets of moderators who fail to delete copyright infringements.
These may also be criminal infractions in some EU countries which can lead ot criminal actions in any EU country.
Trying to steal a guys livelihood, and putting other's assets at risk of liens? If that doesn't justify kicking someone off the site , what does?

 

Post a picture, any picture of any steel boat of similar size with a collision hole in it. M&M pointed that out before, its total BS to go down that line, its not an issue, it doesn't happen (except from rust from the inside).

One picture would be hard to find 10 might prove the point, worldwide too. But if it were an issue you should find hundreds

 

We are gettign a bit off topic, but I feel I need to refute you.

I think you are confusing structural composites (like in a Formula 1 car) and Skin/Cosmetic composites like in NASCAR.

There is no steel roll cage or frame in Formula 1 cars.

In Desert racing all cars have tubular roll cages, but that is for several reasons having nothing to do with structural mechanics.

1: it is the class rules.
2: most amateurs have more experience working with steel.
3: simulating a "space frame" structure is much easier than a monocoque or folded sheet structure.

Same with stock car racing.

Lastly....

Steel tends to fail "more gracefully" than composites (which is why kevlar is spec'd for anything that needs to protect crew, kevlar tends to fail in a more predictable and "plastic" manner than GRP). This is nice for activities like racing off road, but it is also deceptive. People have died because seemingly strong seams which had been previously welded pop open, or from tubes that have been compromised are "ever so slightly" bent out of true and now fail as a compression member.

Keep in mind that, these structures are VERY highly regulated by many sanctioning bodies, the tubes must be certain diameter of certain steels, even the tubes must only be bend using certain radiuses with no crimping (drawn over mandrel). The frame cannot be open, it must have certain cross-members in certain places. Every tube must be filleted at every weld intersection etc etc.

So once again, I am not seeing your argument... it isn't the "steel" that makes a rollcage strong. Its the engineering behind it that allows a driver to walk away uninjured.

Otherwise we'd just drive around in armored trucks, which incidentally you probably wouldn't survive an accident in 50mph, let alone 200.

 

They have gone, pity it showed any prospective neophyte that there's no way they could build from what you provide. They have to employ you preferably, and what about your list of screw ups? Evan Shaler should sue you big time for some of your comments.

By the way under fair use sections of your work may be reproduced no problem, especially to show poor detail and educate potential victims.

 

If you knew anything about yacht design and naval architecture, you'd know that LCG and LCB are not the same and unless you have a complete set of drawings (lines, GA etc.), you cannot establish a LCG. Without it, you cannot draw the hull lines, since you don't know where to put the LCB.

A full-scale plywood model of the hull and deck may very well have the same VCG as a steel shell, but unfortunately for you, and your customers, that doesn't say one bit about the stability of the entire boat!
Interior, machinery and belongings will only add to the RM in the inverted position if they are placed away from the CL! If the boat is floating in the exact inverted position, the RM is 0, just as when it is floating exactly upright.
Anyway, this has little to do with stability in practice. Here, the energy required to heel the boat, or the boats ability to act against the forces of wind and water is important, and to be able to determine that, one needs to produce a stability curve. How do you do that? Can you show us one of your curves?

Yes, but the problem is that you obviously are not able to tell the difference between good and bad when it comes to yacht design...

 

But you made it clear elsewhere that you don’t have the lines, in fact you never had the lines, this is a bit of extra smoke and mirrors. You are just posting what you should have done, not what you did.

You know the lines are not required to build the boat and not furnished to the builder not even offsets even when they are asked for by people who bought your plans.

You are pretending now that you followed the proper designers method of calculation despite spending a lot of energy spitting on calculations when it suits you !

There’s a number of very disillusioned BS origami folk. They don’t want to be identified but they really should come out and be counted.
I will not tell you the name of the people who also had keel damage, and I already said that. But look what came out of the woodwork after I posted that I had been contacted and sent a picture. Suddenly we went from never a problem to your own boat rotating keels and this other boat rotating keels. So its no real shock to find it happen to other boats is it. And that job is done and we’ve moved on.

So you are misleading everyone again big time. You would have absolutely nothing to lose posting a set of lines to prove they existed. You are being fraudulent.

You and we all know you designed from 'snip' 'snip' until you had a shape that was the clever bit ( if you like the shape) you only have one shape which proves it's not a design process just a trial and error. But you are desperate for the very pro approval you spurn. What a duality.

If that’s wrong than post the lines. Or get one other person in the world to verify that you did design from lines.

 

I think we covered that in a previous post.

So far I think the tenor of this thread has fallen within the US and Canadian laws in regards to "Fair Use" (see my previous post) and "Fair Dealing"

from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing#Canada
It is important to clarify some general considerations about exceptions to copyright infringement. Procedurally, a defendant is required to prove that his or her dealing with a work has been fair; however, the fair dealing exception is perhaps more properly understood as an integral part of the Copyright Act than simply a defence. Any act falling within the fair dealing exception will not be an infringement of copyright. The fair dealing exception, like other exceptions in the Copyright Act, is a user's right. In order to maintain the proper balance between the rights of a copyright owner and users' interests, it must not be interpreted restrictively..

The EU and Germany specifically have very similar laws in this regard.

 

That's what Brent just doesn't get with bullets and sledge hammers.

He used to say he'd hit his boats with a heavy hammer and they didn't collapse so therefore they must be super strong ! Although since a few people had a go at him over that one he's stopped using it.