traditional designs and traditional methods

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by chandler, Dec 5, 2005.

  1. chandler
    Joined: Mar 2004
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    chandler Senior Member

    Really getting tired reading about lemon juice flowing around niki foils, canting bulbed hydraulic keels, sailboats with no transoms made out of kevlar and plastic.
    Anyone interested in starting a sub forum for designing traditional sailboat designs using traditional methods. Like paper and pencil, no cad allowed!
    Staples will digitize hard copies for like 6 bucks for those of us who are 2 steps above emailing an attatchment.
    Or am I just a dinosaur that needs to get a life???
     
  2. Raggi_Thor
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    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    No, I don't think so, it seem like you have a life :)
    I think many of us use pencil and paper for new designs in the initial (dreaming) state. When it comes to building, some kind of CAM is so cost efficient that we need some CAD. This is from me, who discoverd some years ago that I neded a keyboard to start writing something while I some years before prefered to start with a dispositin on paper :)
     
  3. chandler
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    chandler Senior Member

    Raggi
    Maybe I should preface it with amatuers, we don't really need to cost efficient.
    But that amatuer thing thing carries a certain stigma with it.
    Did I ever tell you my first carpentry job was with a Norwegian [did I spell that right?] named Arne Marthinson from Bergen. It was in Aspen Co. He was probably 45 at the time had come to the states to teach skiing in the 60's when Aspen was really starting to bloom, was on the Norwegian[did I spell that right?] national team. In the summers he worked in the shipyards of Bergen, before moving to the states obviously. Excellent cabinet maker!
    Treated me like **** because I had no clue on the job but treated me like family out of work. That was back in the 70's when I should have been pursueing a degree in engineering, but instead was pursueing women and fun on the slopes:)
     
  4. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

    I was asked to submit a 10 line hand written comment on my views where the company should be heading last week. believe me, I havent written 10 lines long hand for how many years and I was not impressed with the style of my out-of-practise writing. What is the world coming to!
     
  5. LP
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    LP Flying Boatman

    Trad vs. Rad

    Hey Chandler,

    I love the style of a traditional hull and rig. My own little daysailer has the look of an old timer, but the construction takes advantage modern adhesives and techniques.

    I have to respect anybody that wants to build with traditional materials and methods. It's a commitment of time, energy and money. My concern lies with what happens after the construction is done and the craft is left to languish at the dock or on the trailer.

    I think that there is a mix/compromise where the old can meet the new. The old style can still be built, but using modern materials and techniques that create a stronger craft that resists the effects of the weather for a longer lived vessel.

    Fiberglass and epoxy (actually vinylester?) almost killed the wooden boat. Those same materials, I feel, make wood a viable choice again.
     
  6. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Sure sounds like a great idea, except you have to do the center of masses calculations. Ah Ha, you forgot, didn't you, or possibility better would be for you to learn of the wonderful pain, if you haven't experienced figuring this by hand. We'll talk about stability later.
     
  7. riggertroy
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    riggertroy Senior Member

    The link http://www.steamlaunch.co.nz/Whio.html has some info on the Whio
    A nice launch built to be trailered, economical, have seen her and had a good look over her. Talk about Traditional looks, traditional method mixed with modern.
     
  8. Raggi_Thor
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    Chandler, I think you spell Norwegian correctly every time :)
    I don't know Arne Marthinson, but I do know that many Norwegians moved to the US and still do so. Have you heard the term "Norwegian steam"? Large racing sailboats on the east coast used Norwegian steam on the winches and the halyards...

    I can't resist to mention cost again, there is now a Folkboat for sale for 800.000NOK (new) or a little more thatn 100.000USD. It's built by hand out of larch and oak. The same boat built in Denmark in GRP costs less than the half.

    For a small boat with a simple construction I think an "all manual" approach can be fun. Make some sketches on paper, do some rough weight and stability estimates based on a few section drawings, loft it on the floor and build it in carvel or lapstrake.
     
  9. Grant Nelson
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Grant Nelson Senior Member

    If you like solid and successful tradtional boat businesses check these guys out:

    Gannon and Benjamin Marine Railway
    http://www.gannonandbenjamin.com/

    And this inspiring book based on 'a year in their shop':
    WOODEN BOATS: In Pursuit of the Perfect Craft at an American Boatyard, by Michael Ruhlman. Viking Press 2001 (hardcover). Penguin USA 2002 (paperback). The building of REBECCA.
     
  10. Billy Bones
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    Billy Bones Junior Member

    Chandler I really feel your pain. I'm on my third traditional boat building project now, although I use a mix of materials and techniques. Don't forget to check out the WoodenBoat forum too, for like minded folks.
     
  11. chandler
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    chandler Senior Member

    I guess I mistated that. Traditional designs, meaning just that, traditional methods, meaning paper and pencil or pen, as opposed to cad. I'm all for modern building techniques in wood, it's the chop gun hulls and sterile interiors like the mac 70 mentioned elsewhere in the forum that I can't stand. I'm very familiar with Gannon and Benjamin, they build traditional designs in traditional construction. They are also super expensive because of that.
    Quite frankly I don't know why anyone would build a traditional carvel planked hull with solid timbers in this age of epoxy and glass except to say it's traditional. You need really deep pockets to maintain that sort of hull something GWB has made sure no one except fat cat republicans can afford.
    Sorry about the politics:) couldn't help myself:)
     
  12. chandler
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    chandler Senior Member

    Billy Bones
    I've been an avid reader of wooden boat for 20 years, great magazine! I'm registered in the forum but very seldom go there, probably because I spend too much time here!
    Brian Toss has a pretty cool forum also but doesn't get too much traffic so there aren't many new posts.
    Anyone here looking for info on rigging should check it out.
     
  13. chandler
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    chandler Senior Member

    Par,
    I have no problem doing calculations by hand, [hand held scientific calculator], I think it gives you a better understanding of what you are actually trying to find out than a computer program spitting out a bunch of imformation you don't understand or even need to understand. I mean it's a computer it must be right:)
    I have yet to find a design textbook [that I can comprehend] that does not suggest balancing the curves of cb and cg cut out of a piece of paper balanced on a triangular scale, or has everyone forgotten that in this age of being given without question values derived from a machine?
     
  14. Raggi_Thor
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    Chandler, sorry if I also misunderstood and started to talk (write) about traditional building methods.
    Have you had a look at John (?) Teale, "How to design a boat"?
    It's a simple and practical guide.
     

  15. LP
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    LP Flying Boatman

    Whew!

    I was about ready to get defensive, but figured out PAR responding to the original post. Must be my egotistical streak.

    Fortunately, it appears that most people are open to the use of new techniques as they prove themselves to be viable options. Even Gannon and Benjamin use modern materials/techniques where there is a deficiency in the more traditional methods.
     
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