TP52s

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by mighetto, Nov 1, 2004.

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  1. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    We do not chat horses on Murrelet. It is considered bad luck. Bucking... something like that. Acutallly I find that horse women are good sailors as are motor cycle riders. At least on small boats where the natural balance of the horse person or cyclist actually makes the boat go faster. On the racing spectator platforms like oh say a Tripp 47:) note smiley. all you are looking for in crew is a bag of mostly water to compensate for the disign flaw of the vessel. Hear my note here. It is becoming the rally cry of US Sailing.

    Lets chat seriously about converting the TP52s to IRC racers after next year when their IRC ratings will be adjusted.

    James Boyd in his April 2005 Sailing World article (page 45) notes that the Vende Globe machines with canting keels also have water ballast. The question as to which is the primary ballast system on boats that have both may have been answered in that article.

    Vincent Riou, who is kind of a McGyver (technically proficient) when it comes to fixing things, was unable to fix hydraulic rams used to cant PRB's keel. This forced him to drop the keel down to leeward before any maneuver in the Southern Ocean passage of the 2004/2005 Vende Globe race, slowing things down considerably. However Boyd paints the failure of one of six centerline water ballast tanks on the same boat as more dramatic. The tank could not be repaired allowing air to enter it in a way that meant that 1.5 tons of water ballast could not be used effectively when PRB was on port tack. Boyd says there was an "explosion" involving the tank. So both ballast systems had failures. We come to see from Boyd's article that water ballast is the primary movable ballast form 50 miles from the finish line when the newly-launched-for-the-race Ecover's canting keel falls off.

    Rather than abandoning the race. Golding, fills the water tanks, extends the twin outboard dagger boards and twin rudders and then further stabilizes the boat by reducing sail. In this Mac26x configuration, Ecover sails at 9 knot speeds to become the first monohull in recent history to ever have finished a major race without the benefit of an external keel foil. The experience of PRB and Encover should be conclusive regarding which form of movable ballast is best.

    However debate will continue because of vested interests in canting technology and bulb keels. The best countering argument involves the fact that Riou had the benefit of high speed Internet access where as the other sailors were not able to keep their computer and wireless equipment operating at that speed. Fast web surfing for weather and sea information, in combination with a center foil that could gybe to windward (like the Mac26x) meant Riou could find better wind and sea conditions, point high to get to them, and make a better course to the finish line to win. This argument ignores the fact that Riou had moved ballast off of the canting keel of PRB by using a significantly smaller bulb and thiner foil so that he could add an additional internal (though possibly flawed) water ballast tank. TP52 owners could do the same.

    Pascal Conq and Guillaume Verder further explained PRBs tanks in an article in the July 2005 Seahorse magazine (page 45). PRB has water ballast tanks remarkably similar to Mac26x vessels. The designers call these tanks inertia ballast tanks and they are placed to make the center of gravity align with the center of buoyancy at a 10 degree angle of heel. Additional tanks along the centerline running bow to stern are being contemplated. The inertia ballast tanks provide substantial extra righting moment. "The distribution of these low centre of gravity ballast tanks is chosen to offer both increased inertia to go through waves in the upwind conditon and to counteract the pitching moment induced by the sail driving force in the reaching condition. This set-up was first trialled on Christophe Auguin's successful Finot 60 Geodis some 10 years ago." Christophe Auguin sailed Geodis to victory in both the 1994-95 Around Alone and 1996-97 Vendee Globe. PRB continues to demonstrate the winning ways of this design.

    Frank L Mighetto
    Write in Candidate
    Any Board Position US Sailing or SSSS

    Mark your ballot Frank L Mighetto for all positions. Bylaws alow me to pick the position I favor (scribe) or Secretary. Huzzah Huzzah these are exciting times. Do vote for Runte for Mayor if you are Seattle affiliated. Enough with the politics, I know. Consider this the advertisement. I do not get paid for posting here. Do others? And now back to Seattle's Progressive Sailing Internet.
     
  2. DLackey
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    DLackey Junior Member

    Shyeah. Good luck with that.
     
  3. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    "The general shape of the hull should be cods head and macrell tail."
    Ted Brewer says that its better for going backwards...
     
  4. SailDesign
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    SailDesign Old Phart! Stay upwind..

    Going back a couple of pages to the whole "planing wake" shot, let me post, for the benfit of those who have never seen it, what the transom looks like when you are planing. This is from a 40-footer at about 17 knots.
    Steve
     

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  5. Skippy
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    Skippy Senior Member

    mackid068: I want to hear this from the 'horse's mouth,' so to speak.

    Mouth? The horse's MOUTH?? mk, have you been skipping your anatomy classes? :mad: ... ;)
     
  6. Shife
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    Shife Anarchist

    You have no freakin clue do you Frank. I'm laughing so hard right now that I'm having a hard time typing. Go ahead and hook that tow boat up to your mainsheet. You've got enough practice with tow boats by now that you ought to be a pro. And please, keep ignoring that big stick thingy and the rest of the rigging that your boat came with. Absolutely no loads are transferred through that thing. Your right, they must all be transferred through the mainsheet. Even if the Genoa isn't even attached to it. Oh, and if you're sailing so fast all the time that the apparent wind is forward of the beam, then why do they offer a spin kit for that pile of crap? It seems like such a "high performance" vessel wouldn't need one. My seven year old nephew knows more about correct sail trim than you do. Answer us this Frank: If the McCrap26x is such a fast boat, why aren't any of them winning races? By your statements, these things should be kicking the **** out of everything I race on. Explain how on a beam reach, I smoked past one of these in 13knots true on a Evelyn 32. According to you, the Mac is untouchable and far more advanced than the leadmine I was on. And please don't hesitate to show actual race results to back up your claim. These are easily found on the web.
     
  7. 101
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    101 Junior Member


    Frank, thanks for responding.

    So, it appears to me that the case of the children's deaths, operator of the 26X got underway without the water ballast the boat rolled over and the kids died. At least that is what I think happened. If I'm wrong, please say so and clarify for me. It would seem to me that if this is the case, the builder would have a lock out, tag out system that would prevent this type of manouver. You don't have to be drunk to forget something important.

    Then, I get confused when I also read in your additional posts that the 26X instructions say you can operate with or without the water ballast. At least that is what I thought you said. Please help me out if I'm wrong.

    I am also wondering if you could tell me what the limits of stability of the 26X is when it is unballasted and when it is ballasted.

    Back to the TP52, I see that you don't like the boats because they take a lot of crew, are big, are on the low end of positive stability and you don't like they keel. Does that about sum it up?

    Also, you don't like Tripp Gal because she doesn't like your boat and didn't give you the rating you thought you should have. Do I have that right?

    I look forward to your response so that I can understand this thread.
     
  8. Shife
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    Shife Anarchist

     
  9. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    "operator of the 26X got underway without the water ballast the boat rolled over and the kids died."
    And there is ONE of many problems with water-ballast...
     
  10. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    Frank did you know that the reason genoas, or any overlapping jibs arent used on boats today is because they are inefficient in anything over 8 knots? That is why there are code 0 sails. The only reason you get better upwind performance by easing your main is because your heading straight into the wind with the 50 HP down and running.
     
  11. sailsmall
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    sailsmall Senior Member

    Frank, you don't even know what a cod's head/mackerel tail hull shape is. I'll tell you even though you won't understand - a cod's head is round bow, a mackerel tail is narrow tapered stern. The shape was based on a misunderstanding of hydrodynamics. Your poc boat does NOT have that shape. Boats haven't been built that way for centuries.

    Why don't you stop making **** up, do a little research, and actually learn something.

    In case you have forgotten, your stupid *** was BANNED from SA. Pretending otherwise won't make it so.
     
  12. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    First of all Jim, I only post what I believe to be true. It is lies and secrets that cover lies that I distain most of all. Curuba has always been an SC70 to me. I picked that up from some magazine years ago. The thing that is important about the SC70s are that these are what the TP52 designers were trying to duplicate. I pointed out prior to the Transpac that you would be better off with an SC70 and of course these are Lee originals and not Lee post bankrupsy selling his good name to the TP52 promoters and yes the SC52 was the base for the promotion. Notice how quickly SA picked up on this. I speak it here and SA trys it out there. They must have had it with TP52s. Huzzah for all us true sailing anarchists.

    I have to give Mr Ed shining marks today for posting this

    So we hear that resident Latitude 38 writer Rob Moore is leaving the mag after too many years. Rob turned in fairly pedestrian reports, and while there was not much to complain about his work, his love affair with a very few sailors bordered on ridiculous. That we dared to critique his boyfriends from time to time turned ol' Rob against us pretty quickly, and here is an e-mail that he sent out back in 2001:

    Scot Tempesta is a bitter person who is burning a lot of bridges in San Diego with his personal attacks on people (Leweck, Isler, Conner and many others) and things (PHRF, etc.). It isn't journalism, and no one in the industry expects it to last much longer. Scot has an occasional decent 'innerview', but most of it sounds like the rantings of a deranged and mostly ignored wierdo screaming at people from the street corner, shaking his fist at the world. That's just my opinion, of course.
    Cheers, R.

    Well guess what Rob - we're still here! And yes, I've taken a few good whacks at some of your idols, hell I even did just that yesterday, but who would have thought that you'd be dragging your sorry *** off to obscurity, and I would be commanding the most visited sailing site in the world? I think that is either great irony or poetic justice, either of which works for me.


    Scot and I share our concern for 38 north. In my case the article regarding the Mac26x had been about the only reason. See http://www.latitude38.com/features/ensenada.htm. I mean you finish first and it is a negative. Such spins. Scot clearly has many more reasons to be upset with 38 North than I. I point out that 38 North is now free at west marine. It use to be a buck here in the Pacific Northwest. So I suppose the price is right and it is time to check it out again. How many more articles from Sudie can any reader of 48 north take:cool: Seriously though, she claims to be an engineer. What rational reader would expect anything but dry prose from that back ground. Lets say she writes well for an engineer but her bias for the big boats and against IRC disqualifies her.
     
  13. sailsmall
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    sailsmall Senior Member

    Your raving, as usual, makes no sense at all. The part about Lee is completely incomprehensible. SA is positive on the TP52 in general. Stop making this **** up. Show where SA is against them.

    From what I've observed, you and Scot Tempesta are fundamentally different - he is a rabble-rouser, you are an ignorant jerk. And based on the quote in Shife's signature line, he doesn't think highly of you.

    Your link to Latitude 38 is no good by the way which is too bad because I was looking forward to reading why they think your boat is a piece of crap.
     
  14. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    "posting what you believe is true" is also called posting your "opinion"
     

  15. mighetto
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    mighetto New Member

    SA is positive on the TP52 in general. Stop making out where SA is against them.

    Sigh, www.sailinganrchy.com headliner yesterday:

    That '70's Show
    As you know, the '70 sleds originated as a West Coast phenomenon, later partially morphed into turbo sleds, and then died, only to be resurrected in the Great Lakes as a very vibrant fleet. Much to the chagrin of many Le[ft Coasters, btw. Might the tide turn once again? We hear that the SC 70 Holua is on its way back to Newport Beach and that at least one other former sled owner is looking to play again.

    You ******** may have also taken our TP 52 idea as well, but damnit, we're bringing back these 20 year-old '70 IOR sleds, and we'll show you!

    11/04/05


    From what I've observed, you and Scot Tempesta are fundamentally different - he is a rabble-rouser, you are an ignorant jerk. And based on the quote in Shife's signature line, he doesn't think highly of you.

    If Scot has anything to be angry about it is that many think he and I are the same person. I outed him earlier this year to demonstate that that wasn't the case. His role at SA had been obscured since Tripp Gal started the FOYD thread and I was invited to defend the Mac26x ride. It is a great thing that he now names himself freely. Tripp Gal must have returned his testicle.:) Why does he tollerate her?

    Your link to Latitude 38 is no good by the way which is too bad because I was looking forward to reading why they think your boat is a piece of crap.

    Damn, has Latitude 38 been hacked? They were telling Mac26 classic stories at the Performance Sailing seminar last Tuesday night while I was waiting at the train station. (Many if not most of the great racing sailors in the US have started with Macgregors.)Trains are inexpensive transportation for a reason. Not very reliable. The story from Latitude 38 involved the Ladie Kattie II. Ladie used a 40 hp motor to get on plane under sail (I suspect) and won cruising class. Lattitude had a bad attitude about that and implied she motored the entire race at WOT, sails down, which could not have been true given the limited amount of fuel that can be carried on these vessels. These are true sailboats with dribbly hulls similar to Tasars only larger that have motors like you should expect for heavy weather ocean use. It is not correct to call them motor sailers because the range is so limited (100 miles or so). The modern cruisers being lauched today usually have at least 75 hp motors. I remember thinking the TP52s underpowered because of this.

    In anycase, if you upscale a Mac26x to full cruiser size you come up with about that size power plant (75 hp). The laws of physics appear to apply. Macgregor Yachts put something like 130 hp auxiliaries on its 65 foot ULDBs. My point is that Lattitude 38 did some damage to the Future of Yacht Design by educating its readers to reject out of had the most importaint piece of safety gear on a modern sail boat. That being the auxiliary engine. Today even multihullers are reluctant to put proper sized outboards on their craft even though modern boat building know how produces hulls stiff enough and strong enough to support them with out any problems. On a windless day when a crew member needs medical attention you need to get them to the medics ashore. Perry pointed that out when he mentioned the Mac26x in one of his reviews. Apparently one of his clients has attributed his life to have being saved because he was on a Mac26x when he suffered a heart attach and the boat could motor him fast to waiting medics.

    The promised wind for the Squaxin race today has evaportated. 10 MPH and rainy. Getting back to the Hag's writing.

    Why should Lattitude 48 polute its pages with a story of the Seattle Big Boat event? There were only 17 vessels and the course selected was the mildest possible for the wind that day which was steady and quite unchallenging. I know, we sailed the same wind while sucking wine and cheezes - no steaming pile of crap. When you come to realize that these big boats carry their own spectators, you have to wonder who else besides those sitting on them has interest? Best I can tell most of those sitting on them would have prefered to sit on the chase power boats.

    The Volvo 70s. Well now, you would hardly call crew spectators (rail meat) on these. Of course the spectators have been replaced by movable ballast.

    Interesting how studying the Golf course weather reports (which are oriented to tee time) might be useful in sailboat race strategy. Sure are a lot of golf courses in South Puget Sound.

    Team Kiss Me Arse

    BTW - the west coast slead owner refered to on the SA headliner is likely Roger MacGregor's own daughter who races SC70s. Keep those TP52s in the Med. Let the Med be the dumping ground for this design failure.
     
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