TP52s

Proof of ownership.

 

Who? Where? When?

 

Question for Rolltacker, Pacific Fog and other long-suffering SSSS members: Is this bag o' hazelnuts for real? What exactly is its involvment with the TP52 class anyway? Are you finding your quality of life diminished because of this entity? I think you may need to implement some decisive executive measures to rectify the situation before it destroys your organization.

Yoke.

 

"Defender, I am flattered that you think a Mac26x can be compared to a TP52 but calling them toys is fighting words."

That's right, Macs are NOT toys. Toys are fun. Mac26Xs, on the other hand, are dangerous worthless shitboxes.

 

Unfortunately yes, he is a real person.

Other than his mouth, he has no involvement with TP52's. I'm sure he hasn't even seen one in real life.

No. Other than coming in here and egging him on, he's pretty easy to ignore.

Already done. He's been removed from the board. Everyone makes mistakes now and then. The board at SSSS just didn't see it coming. When they did see it, they took care of it.

 

No I don’t mind at all its all very entertaining, I do feel a bit for the folks trying to make a valid point, but Franks is a troll….

As for destroying our organization that would be tuff to do, even on a good day we are not very structured, but we have fun

As for Frank and the TP52, like Dlackey said I don’t think he has even made a trip up to Seattle to see Braveheart…

As for feeling diminished, well sort of… but not really! It’s impossible to take him factual or seriously

 

I mind

Seriously, I mind. It's bad for our sport to have a guy flapping his gums about stuff he knows very little in a public setting, especially when he invokes the names of clubs, groups, and people that have done nothing to deserve it. It's also bad to have a guy spouting incorrect information about boats' sailing abilities to unsuspecting newbies. I don't like it when someone says a bunch of bad stuff about good people in several public forums without concrete proof. I can let stuff roll off my back, but when you insult my freinds, that's where I draw the line. It's just not right. I personally can't understand how someone could be so ignorant and propel irrational ideas just for the sake of conversation. It is entertaining, but like watching a train wreck, because in reality some people are getting hurt and that is not what I want to get out of this sport.

 

Mac26X

One day I had a call from a lawyer in VT. It was the lawyer handling the criminal defense of the operator of the Mac26X that capsized resulting in the deaths of two small children.

We discussed the other cases around the country where other Mac26X's capsized and left others dead.

What the lawyer was looking for was an expert witness who could speak to the stability of a Mac26X. I recommended Teeters.

Teeters was hired to calculate the stability of a Mac26X. He first tried to get line drawings for the boat, but he couldn't get them so he measured the boat involved to have real-time line drawings. He also measured the displacement in ballast and non-ballast configurations and stability of both configurations.

Based on the reports, he found the weights of the people on board the boat that fateful night and placed sandbags of equal weight on the boat where the people were positioned. An operator of equal size of the accused turned the helm, fired up the engine and rolled the boat into a capsize just like the witnesses said happened.

The operator did not own the boat, he was borrowing it. He had not read the owners manual that describes ballasting and weight placement on board. Apparently, Mac Yachts added labels to boats warning to make sure that not too many people are stationed high, and to keep the people weight low. This boat did not have those stickers.

Teeters testimony was to the effects of stability and the weight placement on board the boat. Since it was a criminal case, there was no testimony about TP 52's, nothing about ORCA, nothing about anything else but the stability of the boat in question. It is preposterous to suggest that Teeters was doing anything other than his job in this case as an expert witness.

The drinking laws in VT are similar to other laws in the country, where if the person involved has been drinking and there are fatalities, there are no "outs" allowed and convictions are easy. Jim's testimony was attempting to show that the boat would have capsized with the absense of alcohol as a sober operator did the same thing in broad daylight. The law doesn't allow any excuses and the accused was convicted.

Teeters is one of the many good guys in our sport. He donates his time to make the sport better, but does not do it to be in the limelight. Those of us who know what he does to improve the sport admire him for his efforts. I am proud to call Jim my friend.

So Mighetto, tell me where you are making the sport better? What have you organized, implemented and seen grown? What are you doing that makes more boats show up for sailing and get more people out on the water?

 

now, what is the likelyhood a TP 52 capsizes by having a person "too high" on deck? You can sail one with a guy up the rig and it wnot effect the boats stability, but on a MAc26X if you are too high ON THE DECK then the damned thing may roll over. And Frank, you are suggesting to take a Mac26 offshore versus a TP 52?

 

Frank, you are suggesting to take a Mac26 offshore versus a TP 52?

LOL! He would!!

 

Glenn, nice information. Can you elaborate?

First, I am unaware of any deaths on Mac26x cruisers other than the childen killed on July 4th 2002 where Teeters testified. You apparently have knowledge of another a death. With 3,500 hulls in operation for five years the savety record of this craft was and remains outstanding. The outboard has even been credited by Robert Perry as saving the life of a man who had a heart attach and needed fast transport to medics.

Second, do you know where to get a hold of or how to get ahold of Teeters calculations? This would be very interesting to folks interested in both the design of the TP52 and of the Mac26x. Perhaps you can get Teeters permision to post them. If, as you say, he is a friend of the sport he would be doing the sport and all 5,000 Mac26x owners a favor by doing so.

Third, Martin was a convicted felon who was related to the owner of the Mac26x and that owner has never and continues to believe and state that it was Martin and not the boat that was at fault. There was a civil suit which the family won against Martin. Also Martin appealed and the appeal of the criminal suite was rejected. His status as a felon, supports the notion that he had legal advice possibly even before the boat was inspected for missing stickers and manuals and that perhaps these were removed after the incident. The Mac26x never was limited and still isn't limited as to the number of persons. It is recommended that the boat be operated in a ballasted condition when more than 4 adults are motoring. However 11 plus a dog seems to be operator error even without consulting the owners manual or seeing a plackard. Martin owned a powerboat. Presumably he knew when sober that he was pushing it.

Fourth, and as you state, because the boat was not on trial, and never was, it was necessary for Teeters to change the views from his written deposition. He had to change from the position that alcohal might have contributed to the capsize to it had nothing to do with it otherwise he was not going to be allowed to testify. His testimony on the stand conflicted with his testimony on paper. We call that impeachment unless you can rationalize a change of opinion.

Finally, Teeters was apparently unable to capsize the mac26x using sandbags when the mast was up. The mast itself provides a dampening action and it was up during the incident. I speculate wakes from other boats were involved. This seams likely given the normal doings after a fireworks display. The question to ask is Why was Teeters so intent on testifying against the Mac26x and now after three years the answer appears to be his support for TP52 box rules - specifically the 1/2 sized TP52 rules that were planned and would compete with the Mac26x. The other reason would be that if successful, the arguments presented and accepted by a court of law would carry more weight with the GP RWP where US Sailing delegates looked to Teeters for technical arguments that would forstall IRC, and extend IMS. It would be useful to compare Teeters arguments that were planned for the GP RWP with those used by him in the July 4th 2002 court case.

We also have to recognize that letters were sent to magazines and printed in Seahorse Magazine of a Whistle Blower nature stating that research done through US Sailing was improper, designed to support a preconceived notion on design rather than to come up with a good sailboat design. Teeters was Director of Research at US Sailing right up until close to the start of the trial when he was either asked to resign or was reorganized out of the position. Teeters continues to write leters to Seahorse. He remains a public figure very much in the way of progress.

Regarding what I have done for sailing see http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/murrelet.htm. The truth presented there has been accessed a quarter of a million times since August of 2004. I am a big part of the re-education of Americans regarding this sport but by no means a leader in that effort. Good God Man - the 30 foot Cone of Silence stole the Transpac show - and the notion that you are better off with a used SC70 than a TP52 has been supported. I do consumer service with these anouncements. We just do not need any more TP52 folly in the US. Let them stay in the Med.

But it is not what I have done but what will I be doing? My sailing career is just starting.

 

I know people who know you. Mighetto, you are throwing muck at my friend. Teeters is too smart to waste his energy on your tirade. I just believe in standing up for people when it is needed. And it is needed. Jim is a very likeable guy, I saw him just this past week. He is slow, deliberate and thoughtful. He is one of those rare individuals that I admire for being ultra smart (and I've only met a handful of these brains in my life). He is a whiz at what he does. I'm happy to get a word or excel file to work, he has 3-D graphics of hulls he spins around on his laptop screen and can tweak any part of a design with a click of a mouse and report immediately to you the effects of a change.

I'll answer your questions, but I don't want to "get into it" with you. I'd prefer to stand up for my friends.

First, there were fatalities in SF Bay and another off of Mentor, OH.

Second, the calculations were paid for by his client and probably owned by his client. I would suggest that any boat owner can get this data by buying an IMS or Americap II rating certificate. The boat will be "wanded" with a measurement machine to develop a computer image of the hull form, the freeboards are measured to calculate displacement, and the boat is inclined to determine stability. Call US SAILING and get your boat measured at your expense.

Third, please don't mix opinion and science together. It's like mixing creationism and evolution. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Fourth, Jim is a naval architect, not a biologist and should have never commented on the effects of alcohol. It is not his field of study and should have referred the question to someone trained in that field.

Finally, why was he intent? Because he was hired to do so. He was hired to develop the stability characteristics of a boat. He was hired to explain the stability to a dozen lay-people. When you get hired to do something, you do what you are hired to do. The guy makes a living being a designer. A job came along looking for his expertice. He took the job. Any of us who make a living look for new work all of the time. It was an opportunity to make a few bucks, so he did it. Now he's onto his next gig. That's life, nothing more, nothing less. To tie it to the rest of the world is nuts.

Sorry, I don't find a website touting your boat of any benefit to sailing. I look for people who are creating things. People who build a successful regatta. People who create new rating rules and support them to the best of their ability. People who find ways of getting more boats off the dock and out on the water. People who try to figure out how to make it safer so that the sport becomes more appealing to the masses. People who get kids out on the water. Websites are dumb objects. They don't create, they are static. A website doesn't get anyone out on the water. People do.

Anyone could build a website touting the advantages of their boat. I find it interesting that the market has been split so many times by the manufacturers that there are micro markets for boating. While automakers can roll hundreds of thousands of units off the same model in a year, in boating a thousand boat run is considered big. And each boat does something a bit different to attract that micro market share. Automakers would go broke mimicing the sailboat market.

I'm happy you like your boat. But as they say, a boat is a boat is a boat. I have my favorites and I wouldn't trade them for anything. And you feel the same way. Welcome to sailing.

 

I know people who know you. Mighetto, you are throwing muck at my friend. Teeters is too smart to waste his energy on your tirade.

He spends time responding in Seahorse International.

I just believe in standing up for people when it is needed. And it is needed. Jim is a very likeable guy, I saw him just this past week. He is slow, deliberate and thoughtful.

He is in the way of movable ballasted designs and is a problem. If he would like to retire, stop spending time responding in magazines and take up golf then we would be duty bound to let it go. As it stands he still does harm. The work he did for US Sailing involving Basic Keel Boat Training needs to be completely removed and replaced with Bethwaite.

He is one of those rare individuals that I admire for being ultra smart (and I've only met a handful of these brains in my life). He is a whiz at what he does. I'm happy to get a word or excel file to work, he has 3-D graphics of hulls he spins around on his laptop screen and can tweak any part of a design with a click of a mouse and report immediately to you the effects of a change.

He is a discredited designer. Tailor did him in big time. The GP RWP finished him off. But perhaps he can redeem himself. What has he done lately? I mean I had Barry Caroll in bed with Teeters until Barry redeamed himself with strong IRC support.

I'll answer your questions, but I don't want to "get into it" with you. I'd prefer to stand up for my friends. First, there were fatalities in SF Bay and another off of Mentor, OH.

There was a capsize in SF Bay and in fact much was made of it by US Sailing at the time. See http://www.ussailing.org/Pressreleases/2000/ABHIrishMist.htm. It was gleefully reported by US Sailing in that press release. There was no reason to mention the boat type in order to honor. But no death. I am confident this is the incident you refer to. The Mentor OH incident I would like to get more data on for my web log. I suspect there were no fatalities as well. It would have come up in the 2002 July 4th case if there had been.

This is my conclusion. The Mac26x was splashed in anticipation of the ISAF modifications to rules 51 and 52 allowing movable ballast and stored energy and the design was based on proven minitransat designs. You have to realize that Roger MacGregor broke up all the molds to prior models at that time (with the exception of the 65 footer), he was so confident he had a hit.

Second, the calculations were paid for by his client and probably owned by his client. I would suggest that any boat owner can get this data by buying an IMS or Americap II rating certificate. The boat will be "wanded" with a measurement machine to develop a computer image of the hull form, the freeboards are measured to calculate displacement, and the boat is inclined to determine stability. Call US SAILING and get your boat measured at your expense.

Would not the calculations be public record owing to the court case? In any case, what you have posted is exactly what I understood Teeters to do. He was supporting IMS and Americap II and not researhing the vessel itself. Why would I spend money on that. No one cares abou IMS and Americap II - this from Barry. It is IRC now.

Third, please don't mix opinion and science together. It's like mixing creationism and evolution. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Its a fact, Taylor, a naval architect from Michigan, testified that the Mac26x does not have design flaws and can be piloted safely.

Fourth, Jim is a naval architect, not a biologist and should have never commented on the effects of alcohol. It is not his field of study and should have referred the question to someone trained in that field.

Jim is a naval architect whoes reputation has been harmed. Naval architecture is hardly a profession if it can not police its own.


Finally, why was he intent? Because he was hired to do so. He was hired to develop the stability characteristics of a boat. He was hired to explain the stability to a dozen lay-people. When you get hired to do something, you do what you are hired to do. The guy makes a living being a designer. A job came along looking for his expertice. He took the job. Any of us who make a living look for new work all of the time. It was an opportunity to make a few bucks, so he did it.

So you are confirming that he would say anything for money? Oh come on - even I can not see that. He must have believed the Mac26x a dangerous machine or a threat to the status quo. It is the later that appears to have been the case.

Now he's onto his next gig. That's life, nothing more, nothing less. To tie it to the rest of the world is nuts.

We do not operate in a vacumn. The ethics of the corporate world apply to the sailing sport just as they did at the Salt Lake Olympics. You are aware of the significant fiscal accounting problem that happened at US Sailing involving the last Olympics are you not. Jim is or was part of all of that. It is nuts to think otherwise. His resignation/reorganization out/or firing supports this conclusion.

Sorry, I don't find a website touting your boat of any benefit to sailing. I look for people who are creating things. People who build a successful regatta. People who create new rating rules and support them to the best of their ability. People who find ways of getting more boats off the dock and out on the water. People who try to figure out how to make it safer so that the sport becomes more appealing to the masses. People who get kids out on the water.

Look then to this fellow Roger Macgregor. He has done more for the sailing sport in the US than 1000 Jim Teeters. There is no designer who has figured out how to make it safer so that the sport becomes more appealing to the masses. Consider that these Mac25x vessels are family cruisers many of them with children that in a few years will be or are now teens. This is the Future of Sailing.

Websites are dumb objects. They don't create, they are static. A website doesn't get anyone out on the water. People do.

Well Websites are never completed. Is that what you mean. They are influencial. I get at least two inquiries per month asking for my opinion owing to what is portrayed there.

Anyone could build a website touting the advantages of their boat. I find it interesting that the market has been split so many times by the manufacturers that there are micro markets for boating. While automakers can roll hundreds of thousands of units off the same model in a year, in boating a thousand boat run is considered big. And each boat does something a bit different to attract that micro market share. Automakers would go broke mimicing the sailboat market.

Except there is something fundamentally different about a sailboat from a powerboat or a production car and that is that they are raced. While not true with a power boat, raceability is a determinant of resale value in sailboats. This is why a boat like the J24, with 5000 hulls still holds its value in spite of significant technology improvements (like positive flotation). It is also why a TP52 tanks in value after its first year.

I'm happy you like your boat. But as they say, a boat is a boat is a boat. I have my favorites and I wouldn't trade them for anything. And you feel the same way. Welcome to sailing

Not just sailing but also racing and ocean racing. I think a man that is happy with his boat can find good in almost all boats (even TP52s) and that someone who is unhappy with their boat will hate Mac26x cruisers. In anycase there is some good out of Teeters' inappropriate testimony. That is that there are over a half a dozen powersailers on the market now. That wouldn't have happened without the halt of Mac26x production in the US owing to the involvement of the Director of Research of US Sailing in the 2002 July 4th drunken boater's case. His orchestrating the withdrawal of the US Sailing delegates to the GP RWP likely spurred on the IRC implementation in the US as well.

 

Stop Frank, it's bad enough your ignorance continues to shine far brighter than your inability to comprehend basic English. It is time for you to stop speaking about Teeters, Farr, and TG all three of which you know nothing about. I like Barry as a person, and he did a hell of a job on the boat I own, but he's on his own when it comes to your demented idol worship. He hasn't had to put up with you over the past year like other people have.

Go sailing Migghie. Take your SO and do the Jack and Jill series. You can go NFS and nobody will care. Go do some benefit races. Seattle has 2 or 3 coming up soon. Do some social good. Last year TG offered to pay your entry fee for one of those, but you weasled out. I wouldn't expect that same offer, you don't deserve the kindness she has shown you. But I will pay your entry fee. I won't even ask to poke you in the eye for repayment. Just get out and get some experience. Contrary to what you think, sailing is not a spectator sport.

Jim