TP52s

Mark: My magic hat is off to you. See http://cycseattle.org/leadline/junell.pdf. Lets put this into terms both amature and professional designers can understand. In the US the J24s were the correct boat at the correct time. But they are at least 7 years and likely over a decade past their ability to make competative sailors out of newbes to the sport. Designers all over the world are looking for a replacement for them. It is kind of a holly grail. And they sink.

Now look at what is happening in Seattle and Vancouver BC, where the J24s tend to sink alot. There is interest in Tasars. In fact, I believe the first registrants for the 2005 worlds in Darwin are from Washington State. Tasars are a Bethwaite design that I think should be considered for the Olympics because not only do they plane like a Mac26x or Melges but they also are meant to be crewed by a male and a female. A co-ed Olympic sailing event would be a great thing eh?

Unlike Melges and the god awful notion of a TP52 box rule 26 footer, Tasars, like Mac26x cruisers, do not sink which seams to be and should be a requirement for the "equipment" used in the Olympics. Good luck NY in their bid. It should be a requirement for an ocean crossing vessel as well, and that isn't just me. All designers should work for water tight compartments or something that keeps the boat from sinking.

One great advantage to Tasars, above the unsinkable feature, is that there is a $200,000 simulator you can rent so you need not get wet when practicing. It is the same one used for Lasars and at Kahn's school. The notion of having shore based training on a simulator is not unlike the training air pilots get before even getting in the craft.

Point is: Traditional keel boats have been used for training newbees not because they are the best craft for them, or anyone, but because they are as close to shore based training as one could get prior to Bethwaite like simulators. The trainers could move crew about a heavy keel boat without capsize risk and could put enough paying Corinthians aboard to make a profit. There was no real relationship to safety and in fact because newbes went on to purchase TP52 like vessels there was consumer harm.

In the modern age we will see the future of yacht design take these two directions. Replica tall ships built of composites meant to inspire youth. These are exempt from EU CE certification requirements. Those requirements prevent any vessel built from 1999 or so on from entering EU waters that isn't exempt or certified. And we will see ULDBs with retracting foils and movable ballast which in concert with simulators and the multi-hull notion that the S#it should float means narrower beams because these reduce the capsize risk ratio.

Mark, I post only what I believe to be true. But, I have changed my mind on more than a few things involving yacht design. Keep an open mind. see http://www.boatdesign.com

 

Ok, so miggheto, sir, I'm just wondering here, why is the Mac 26x so great? Doesn't seem to be. It's a slow motorboat combined with a poor sailboat. I know this isn't the thread topic, but I feel that it is essential.

 

Simulators are a design exercise... a curiosity, nothing more.
If you are afraid to get wet you don't belong in sailboat racing,
especially dinghies.

Dinghy racing has less to do with racing large boats than J/24
racing does... yet it is applicable training. Your idea that training
in the wrong kind of boat would somehow corrupt a talented (or
any other) sailor is just ludicrous. The strategies are the same...
timing the start, ;earning the rules & tactics, learning how to
feel & read the elements (water surface, wind, currents, trends, etc.)
can be learned in almost any boat if you don't run the engine.

You make it sound like yachting is some highly organized sport with
a hierarchy and levels of achievement and tiers... other than the
Olympics it really just isn't so. Sure, there are well known sailors,
experts, and respected athletes, but it's not like Baseball with a
structured (little league) progression to the top levels (college,
then major league). And, unlike some sports, the Olympics is
where you find the best in the world.

The TP52 happens to be a great boat. Keel boats are not
successful due to the brainwashing or sailors by some Vast
Keelboat Conspiracy... they are successful because they
are essentially simple, affordable, safe (self righting) and
predictable.

The J/24 can be made positive bouyant. But it isn't (contrary to
what you may think) common for them to sink. If the hatches
are kept closed in rough weather, they aren't likely to sink.
Water ballasted boats don't work well if you don't use them
correctly. Use a boat correctly, and it isn't likely to fail.
But, if the wind is blowing 35 kts., I'll sail a J/24 and be comfortable
enough to watch what you are doing in your M26... which probably
will not be sailing. Real racers don't quit every time the wind
iether dies or cranks up. The best in the world can sail in whatever
wind they are presented with.

People can make costly mistakes on any type of boat. Keelboats
have the advantage of making a full recovery from a mistake that
induces a knockdown. Close the hatches. Add bulkheads or floatation
if you are worried about sinking.

But you are convinced the TP52 is a "bad boat" for some irrational
reason, and you keep placing the M26 in the company of far
superior boats implying that it is somehow their equal.
It's not even close.
The Melges is a boat that could sail in circles around your boat.
The TP52's wake could swamp you as it sails by you like you're
standing still. The J/24 could sail circles around you, and it is a 30 year
old design. A $5000 Catalina 27 is far more seaworthy than a $25,000
MacGregor 26, and you could spend the difference on moorage and a
suitable trailer for it. Even the old (1958) Thunderbird is a far superior
sailing vessel. The M26 is a motorsailer. It's not a sailboat, it's not
a powerboat... it does neither one truly well. It is a compromise for
people who don't want to commit to one type of vessel or buy one
of each. It does what it was made for very well... it was designed
as a compromise. It is not an offshore vessel, and never will be.

It is not CE certified either... but as far as I'm concerned the EU can take
their CE crap and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. I don't need
a governemnt to be my daddy... I will decide acceptable risk for myself
(in the few areas where we still can).

Sail on some racing boats. Race a lot. Then spout off about what
makes a good racing sailor.

 

MacKid,

Ok, so miggheto, sir, I'm just wondering here, why is the Mac 26x so great? Doesn't seem to be. It's a slow motorboat combined with a poor sailboat. I know this isn't the thread topic, but I feel that it is essential.

Lets requote you from the other thread. I think it is an appropriate discussion:

Let's just leave it at this: Macgregor 26s are not good for bluewater and TP52s are. Simple enough.

If this were true the 100th year of the Transpac would have at least a dozen TP52s in it. The requote should be:

Let's just leave it at this: Macgregor 26s are good for bluewater and TP52s are not. Simple enough?

You know the story of Common Sense Do You not? Let me put it into MacGregor terminology because this is common sense terminology:

One of the longest ocean race records still unbroken is held by a MacGregor 65. It is exciting to see BARKING SPIDER 3 in Division III in the Transpac with less than a handfull of TP52s and a slugo of Cal 40s. May the Mac65 sail well and go Cal 40s. Anyway on Spider 3...

She is owned by David Kory of Concord California. Kory in 2003 sailed a Catalina 38 from Point Richmond in the Transpac. Costa Mesa built boats are just fantastic ocean sailboats. Likely the same folks built his 38 as his 65. Macgregor and Catalina are known to have shared staff more than regularly to keep the best hand laying glassers in town when one or the other factory was running slow or retooling. The smallest vessels in the Transpac this year are J35s.

Now the stage has been set for my story:

In 1938 a 27 footer named Common Sense III had a problem prone Transpac race. That prompted organizers to require boats that are larger than 30 foot and crews of four. So alas, a Mac26x would not be allowed to compete today. However, think this through. Half a TP52 is a TP26. Do you really think the TP26 footers will not be allowed to race two years from now?

I suspect the name Common Sense angers many even today because there really is no reason in the modern age, with modern construction know how and weather reporting, for the restriction. That restriction and removal thereof represents a marketing opportunity that the TP52 organizers intended to capitalize on. But it is an artificially created opportunity because...

By the 1950s boats as small as 19 foot were shown to be ocean worthy and the minitransats racing today are that only 5 foot larger. It is only common sense prevailing. The Macgregor babyMacs are larger than the minitransats which do similar downwind races and this year the VanIsle 360.

It is time to face facts. ORC's new International Rule defining a 26 foot box rule for a grand prix class is in competition with Mac 26x and m water ballasted vessels. The grand prix 26ft class will have a bowsprit, and is to be managable by a crew of four people, just as the Mac X and Ms are.

Common sence would dictate that rather than creating a regatta circuit based on these new trailerable grand prix TP26 footers, that instead this effort be extended towards using the existing 5000 plus X fleet. The ORC TP26 footers demonstrate the vested interests that compelled Jim Teeters to attempt to make the Mac26x (and all water ballasted vessels) an issue in a drunken boater's case. ORC is a spin off from US Sailing and is tied to ORCA, both organizations that have supported Teeters and have been reluctant in supporting IRC. Think of the marketing that was planned. Something like "now there is a TransPacific 26 footer. A miracle of design!". Only now you know Macgregor Yachts beat them to this market. You need also learn that Roger designs first over the line yachts like the Mac65 and that the Mac26x is such a yacht. First over the line in cruising class, Newport to Encinada. Now common sense should at least get you thinking. Remember, there isn't enough fuel stored on an X to let her motor more than 100 miles. These are ocean sailboats first - capable of 17MPH under sail according to the manufacturer and meant to be sailed and motored with or without water ballast by the appropriate skilled racing team. They were marketed as "heavy weather" racers.

 

Transpac on a M26 would take around 2-1/2 weeks minimum.
Our ability to predict weather is not that good.
So much for common sense.

The standing rigging on a M26 would disintegrate in 55 kt winds.

In 55 kt winds with 15 ft seas a M26 would be stripped of its rigging,
would be tossed and rolled, and it would be beaten to pieces.

Granted, many of the pieces would float, hopefully the liferaft being
one of them.

Do us all a favor... take your M26 and sail the Pac Cup next year.
I guarantee you will not be disrespecting deep keeled boats afterwards.

 

Team Kiss Me Arse is thinking more of the VanIse360 or Swiftsure I need to slow you down a bit by stating that it is dangerous to encourage anyone to ocean race before they know they are ready and winning a race proves nothing. See http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3401. Well I suppose it gave my wife credibility. I was just the tactician (caddy in TP52 speak - how I hate golf! and TP52 speak. Argh!) No respect for a former power boater such as I however. There can be no respect for a fellow such as I. So be it. There will be truth.

You do not get it. A Mac26x IS A DEEP KEELED BOAT. She just isn't a fixed deep keeled boat. But you have a decent point. We are racing a Hunter 34 regularly at the end of next month and in preparation with other Hunter 34s I believe it will be a she is winning then we are winning effort depending on wind speed and point of sail. The H34 has the deep fixed keel option.

When there is enough wind that fixed keel lifts her hull and provides something like dropping ballast would for the Mac26x in lighter air or planing on reaches does. The rotating keel on the Mac26x does provide some lift but mostly I think it is a form of a rudder. To keep the X at her optimum 15 to 17 degree of heel going upwind with the Hunter 34 when the Hunter is doing well requires me to reduce the head sail. Our rigger has informed us that there is a new Genoa that yeilds less heel. These run about $1,400 and my wife is hot to get one before heading to the San Juans. Less Heel - oh come on - thats a marketing ploy isn't it. Well I need a new head sail anyway. Sign, might as well keep an open mind.

There is something else your post makes me think of and that is the last Swiftsure. Many of the boats from the society had kind captains that halted the effort when crew became so uncomfortable it was mean to continue. One captain instead ran his heater, which was ruined by salt water eventually, but because of the cabin heat his more comfortable crew were willing to continue. He came in second. The Cal 40s were built first for comfort and then stripped down for racing. This notion of there being a race boat inside of every modern cruiser design is a good one. It means that UNLIKE a TP52, once the racer is retired there is a secondary market to the cruising prospects. The TP52 secondary market was to have been lubbers in the USA dabbling in sailboat racing. Lubbers who think sailboat racing is like golf and the owner when driver is like the golfer with his caddy in that secondary market. OK perhaps caddy is a term of respect. I do not know, but I suspect not. I suspect it is more akin to slave or servant and is nothing like what tactician means to real sailors. That market must be eliminated for the Rise of The American Sailor.

Hey, wouldn't it be great to see a Ranger23 do the VanIsle or Swiftsure? Or a Thunderbird? Do not think I do not see this. My objection is not to fixed keels - I probably do object to bulb keels but even here retractable bulb keels like on Icon seam KEWL and Brewer has been wrong before - no doubt. And I object to displacement mode only ocean sailboat designs in the 30 foot to 37 foot range that are marketed as ocean racers because they can not take advantage of modern reporting and likely are not reinforced for that duty.

You will find that all the competitive ocean racers have extensive weather gathering capabilities - by Internet and cell phone on all oceans now. It is great to live in the modern age. No fast boat need ever go into a storm with this reporting.

 

I did see at least one Thunderbird on swiftsure (at the start).
To do the full 140 nm swiftsure classic a boat must rate fast
enough, and the T-Bird doesn't make the cutoff. It might be
eligible for the 103 nm Cape Flattery race (which is what we entered).

I was on one of the boats that dropped out of swiftsure due to
the crew getting cold, tired, wet & seasick. We could have finished,
but in a Synergy 1000 going to weather in square waves that were
about 5-6 ft in 25-30 kt winds we could not keep up with the heavy
boats... not even close enough to catch them when we fly downwind
on the return trip.

Basically, the decision was that we were taking a beating competitively
and physically. Downwind would have meant a couple of broaches in
the dark of night (the Synergy 1000 is 33 ft and weighs around 4400 lb).
A good chance of breakage and/or sails damaged. So, the skipper opted
to withdraw and play it safe (also possibility of MOB in a broach).
I was sad not to finish my first Swiftsure, but did not even question
the call. I was first on the rail... everyone else uses me for a shield
to hide behind to avoid the wind and the waves coming over the deck.
I was cold. I had taken Bonine (Meclezine), and was not seasick, but
could tell (by occasional foamy burps) that it was the drugs that saved me.
Many of the crew got seasick in spite of wearing the patch behind the ear.

Basically, I was cold, and was wondering how I would do at night.
It was 90° when we left Victoria... I had on my foulies with several
layers above the waste and only shorts that go just below the knees
underneath my bibs. The neoprene dinghy boots were fantastic.
I had dry clothes (sweatpants) and full fingered gloves which
I was keeping dry for the night watch. I figured when I went for my
rest I would change before coming back on deck.

But I was relieved when we turned downwind, in spite of mild disappointment.
It was an issue of comfort more than one of safety for us.
We have been knocked down many times before... it's part of
racing a sportboat on longer races. As I said, they are designed
to recover rather than to avoid knockdowns.
Fail Safe, not Fail Proof.

Here are some other accounts of the race:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18852

 

Mark 42,

Thanks for your report. There should be more discussion than what is on Sailing Anarchy.

Here is the report that counts on Swiftsure. So instrutive it is coming directly from Tripp Gal - the one with the morbid fascination of the Mac26x and strong supporter of Teeters and TP52s, I believe. I bring it up by way of illustrating design consideration and hope for the American Sailor. Hope that is demonstrated by even Sailing Anarchy withdrawing the article. Those like Tripp Gal need not welcome the Future of Yacht Design but they need to give way and give way now. The CYC and IRC chat is scheduled for Friday. Hope to meet you there assuming this thing actually happens. Barry Carrol (formerly a strong TP52 supporter and now strong IRC supporter BICT) is featured. Anyway comments are brief because I do intend to one day make a friend of Tripp Gal, currently my big enemy. I have not snipped any of the article which appeared first on Sailing Anarchy right after Swiftsure.

Swift-Less

The 62nd year of the Swiftsure International Yacht Race began in 5 knots of breeze out of the southwest on a perfect and clear day. The weather forecast was for a building westerly reaching 15-25 in the afternoon and night and laying on Sunday. The crew was excited for the day and once we worked our way out of the start area we found ourselves right behind the boats rated faster and in front of the boats rated slower. During the next 10 miles the wind continued to build and by Race Rocks we were under a full main and #3 with a steady 18 knots (true) from 255. The standing safety rule on our boat is that if the #3 goes up everyone has to wear PFD's, and as we headed away from Race Rocks all of us were wearing flotation. Our run through Race Pass was marked by speeds made good of over 12 knots and the lighthouse quickly disappeared into the distance.

Alls well here except that the previous two days had had strong wind, by other reports.

The tide was now ebbing full against the building breeze and the seas were increasing. Another hour passed as we worked southwest towards the turning mark, and we continued to make progress toward the next boat in our fleet while the boats behind could barely be identified with the field glasses. The wind had now built to 20-25 true , but the boat was in her element and driving was extremely enjoyable for the helmsmen. We took a short port hitch to consolidate on the boats behind as we expected the wind to continue to shift West as we approached the Neah Bay mark. As we continued on our port tack we ran into a bit more pressure and the waves grew to 3-5 feet with short wave periods. Though most of the wave action was pretty predictable we saw what appeared to be a confluence of swell and wind waves because every 15-20 minutes we would catch a pair of waves shaped like the World War II anti-tank obstacles called "Dragon's Teeth". These waves were traveling transversely along the predominant wave fronts indicating 2 systems combining.

Classic conditions for the wind waves that we all hate. Good time for jack lines eh?

Suddenly coming down off a wave we hear the sound similar to a gunshot and the foot of the main begins to sag. A quick look confirmed the Crystalyne 3/8" line has parted mid-length in the outhaul system. We decide to use the reefing line to attempt to replace the outhaul. The current outhaul is a 16:1 cascade system while the reefing system is a 2:1 purchase. We quickly lost confidence the reefing line would hold that type of load long term and decide the best answer is to reef and reduce the loads. We set the crew to reef the sail, drop the halyard, and begin to reef. During this time a weak point identified earlier in the main along the leech (previously repaired) fails and the leech parts before we can complete the reef. A quick look around the boat shows what I already knew, our race was over. The call was made to drop the main the rest of the way down and return to home.

Suddenly? Come on! The main sail trimmer reported to me personally that he had called for more outhaul tension. This to flatten the sail - instead of reefing. Outhaul tension is a form of reefing, I suppose.

The main was lowered and secured to the deck as we waited for a flat spot to turn downwind towards home. The tactician wanted to allow the boat to settle into it's motion before having the crew on the deck to drag the main below and so everyone was organizing their areas and coming to terms with the disappointment of having to retire. It was that time that the first of a pair of the "dragon teeth" waves rolled the boat 20 degrees to starboard and then quickly back 15-20 to port. The second wave snap rolled the boat back to starboard another 30 degrees as it passed under us. Five crew lost their balance and fell across the cockpit. The helmsman and I were caught by one of the runner team, the 2 jib trimmers fell across the boat with the navigator who was caught by the tactician. The first jib trimmer squirted out between the lower lifeline and the deck while the 2nd jib trimmer managed to stay aboard.

OK so the first trimmer wasn't using his harness. His fault likely but gee a boat with a rule about life jackets and not harnesses?

The pit person immediately reported "Man overboard Starboard side" and pulled the pin on the MOM-8. The pit was acting as a spotter and I assisted her by communicating with the overboard person and onboard crew involved in the recovery effort. The helm turned up to clear the man overboard, slow the boat, and stay close. The MOM-8 didn't drop out of the container properly and we had to quickly force the base of the unit free from the casing. When finally deployed the MOM was about a boat length from the overboard crewmember. In those conditions however anything less than 10 feet is going to be a huge physical drain to get to.

I was told that the first trimmer actually dove under a life line. OK those conditions were difficult. And yet some boats will lie a hull or heave to without problems in those conditions. Boats like Mac26x's for instance.

Our heading at the time of the MOB was a very broad reach under #3 alone at a SOG of approximately 7 knots. When the helmsman turned up to keep close to the MOB we were beating to weather with only the headsail up. As the driver during the mainsail take-down I knew how difficult it was for the current helmsman to keep way on and be able to maneuver with that little of sail area up. The waves which were so easy to cut through with the main and jib up would now drop the boat with a shuddering stop. Helm response was poor at best but we were still sailing at over 5.7 knots over ground as we headed back to circle the MOB.

Sounds professional doesn't it? But you need to know that this boat had had both engine troubles and keel electrolosis issues earlier in the season. In fact this is the boat whose Captain challenged the crew of Murrelet for pink slips. I knew the problems with the fixed keel vessel - they are both common problems for old race machines and wasn't interested in taking her as a prize.

After checking for lines in the water the engine was turned on in the event that we could not retrieve while under sail. A heaving line was brought topside during the approach back to the MOB and thrown when we were approx 15-20 feet to lee from them.

Here is where I think. What the? The engine wasn't on? In the first place there would not have been a broach if the engine had been used to dodge. It should have been turned on when the main was dropped to prevent that. In the second, why were they thinking of retrieving the MOB under sail. Is somebody writing a book, planning on heavy weather lecturing, argh!

The MOB caught the line on the first try and we began to bring him toward the boat. In order to stop the boat and avoid towing our MOB we had to blow the jib which meant we were abeam to the seas and wind. Unfortunately since one of the jib trimmers was overboard and the other was handling the heaving line, we didn't have a jib trimmer ready to trim or blow the jib as necessary during this maneuver. The crew boss was busy trying to hold the mainsail down and couldn't step in, the pit person wasn't near the pit so they couldn't drop the halyard, and so one of the main trimmers ended up grabbing the sheet and spinning it off the winch. As we got closer the MOB let us know he didn't have much strength left. Since the MOB didn't see the need earlier to put on the MOM we found that we didn't have a safe attachment point to use the traditional halyard hoist off the lee side to get him back on the boat. He was tired and it would have required a couple of minutes more for him to try and don the MOM and secure a line to it. The other concern with a beam hoist of the MOB was that the waves were rolling the boat side to side which could result in more chance of injury to the MOB and other crew. The goal was to get him in fast and safely which that meant we had to retrieve off the transom. The transom on the back of Navitae is a reverse shear, open transom with large walkthroughs on each side of the runners.

Complements to the boat designer. We are sailing a Tripp later this year out of San Francisco. I expect to have a blast but lets face it the MOB was in way more trouble than a retrieve under sail manuver waranted.

The tactician secured himself to the chain plate on the transom and two other crew pulled the MOB closer to the boat so that they could grab a hold of him and walk him around to the transom. Once the MOB was at the stern, we kept him away from the stern until we started to pull. We cleared the port (windward) runner winch and put a wrap of the heaving line over the winch as a guide forward to the winch on the cockpit. One of the mast men was at the cabin winch to help take up slack as we began the haul. The tactician got one arm under the MOB's shoulder and the chest. The other hand grabbed whatever he could. The pit person then grabbed the tactician's harness and under his armpit. I grabbed the Pit person under both shoulders. When the next wave approached the boat and floated the MOB higher to the transom we collectively took a heave and leaned back. The MOB was now safely against the transom with his head above the deck and his body lying against the hull. It took 3 rounds of pulling with each wave to get our MOB fully onto the deck.

The captain expects to get the Arthur B. Hanson Rescue Medal for this, I am affraid. Such is the warped mind set of Tripp Gal. I can just imagine the preasure crew are getting to support her on this. Lets nip that idea in its bud today.

The helmsman for the entire maneuver was doing what he could to keep some sort of control with the helm what was un-responsive at best with the jib flogging.

Everthing except using the primary safety feature on the race boat that being The Engine.

Once the helm heard us yell "HE'S IN!" he turned downwind to regain steerage and speed while the person sitting in the jib trim spot pulled the jib in. While flogging the jib we slung part of the trigger shackle overboard and one of the mast men had to reverse the sheet and bowline the sheet to the clew of the #3.

Once fully in the boat the MOB was checked for injuries, taken below to get their clothes changed, and given water and one last check over.

You don't usually give water to someone with potential hypothermia. We had a disaster many years ago where several who had been pulled from the water got hypothermia. Those given hot coffee died. Those given nothing lived. Its a judgment call. Obviously correct in this case but dangerous.

The helmsman turned off the engine which was never used, and we continued our sail.

The Captain is actually proud of the fact that the engine was never used. There is no hope for American Sailors as long as that kind of attitude is considered correct. Compare and contrast with the MOB involving Balder a year earlier. Here the engine went on and sails down immediatly, the engine was put in reverse and the unconsious MOB retrieved from the spoon transom. That was worthy of an award. One of the first things crews of Mac26x vessels do is train others on how to use the engine in case the operator should go overboard.

As we departed the area, one of our competitors arrived to assist. He was several miles away when he saw our maneuvers and immediately knew what was up. They footed off to reach us and waited nearby until they were sure we were OK. This same competitor had just the week before assisted in the recovery of crew during the J24 Nationals where a boat sunk. Thank you to the White Cloud team for the big effort to render assistance. Unfortunately our MOM, which wasn't attached to our MOB was disappearing behind us, but with only the headsail up it was going to be a whole lot of time and work to try and recover it. After we had our MOB checked out I called into the RC that we had withdrawn and our emergency MOB gear was left abandoned at a specific Lat/Lon. I also attempted to radio White Cloud and alert them that we had our MOB and were returning home.

White Cloud did win the Van Isle 360. I have come to suspect that an entirely different story would have been told if not for the witnesses she carried. Sigh, we are not yet there here in the USA.

Approximately 20 minutes later our MOB came up from below in dry clothes and hair combed ready to continue sailing. We talked quite a bit about the experience on our run back to Victoria and discussed what we did to make the recovery fast and how to make it faster in the future, not that any of us want it to happen again.

Now for the lessons learned.

Make sure you check that the MOB feature is fully engaged when you walk away from the GPS. Those rubbery buttons on GPS units require that you visually confirm you engaged a feature as you think you may have depressed them, but always check. In our case we had 2 GPS units with MOB engaged, both the handheld at the helm and in the Nav station.
" Whether the MOB thinks they need it or not, instruct them put the MOM-8 or LifeSling on. It means they can put the heaving line through the rings rather than hold it, there is no such thing as too much buoyancy, and the MOB equipment can be recovered with the person.
" Make sure each and every person knows how to locate, deploy, don, and recover the safety equipment onboard. If you have a "black box" recovery unit such as a MOM-8 or MOM-9 ask your local chandlery if you can borrow the demo unit for a day so you can show your crew. Attend a LifeSling class if that is your recovery unit of choice. Of course, Practice, Practice, Practice!

How about practicing reefing? The crew of NJ attempted to reef after the outhaul gave way. This is rational because you in effect get another outhaul after reefing. Only the main sail trimmer reported to me that the boat had never been reefed. They never practiced it and likely did not know how. It was durring the poor reefing job that the mainsail ripped.

While sailing back to the slip after a race you have a captive audience, use this time to engage them in MOB discussions. The safety equipment is useless if you can't find it, don't know how to deploy it, don't put it on, or can't get the MOB back in the boat.
" Encourage the MOB try to swim in a side stroke to the rescue equipment with their face away from the waves. It helps minimize splash and water ingested.
" Plan for every type of sail combination you might ever have including jib only. Each presents their own challenges to recovering a MOB. In our case with the jib only we could not effectively work upwind to be able to perform a leeward beam recovery and we could not hove-to to stop the boat which also meant we were abeam on the waves rather than nose on. Had we been nose-on a transom recovery would not have been a viable option as it would have been far more dangerous than a side recovery.
" Our MOB was very calm and collected during the event which was very important in his quick and successful recovery. A panic stricken person is less likely to listen to his spotters and follow directions.
" If you have non-swimmers on the boat, insist they have PFD's on at all times.
" When being pulled by a heaving line or other means it's good to roll onto your back . It keeps your head above water rather than forcing your head below and potentially drowning you.
" Our MOB said his first thought was to blow his whistle, then turn on his light, then find where the MOM-8 is. That's a good sequence to follow. Get someone's attention, be visible, and find the recovery tools.
" Always make sure the person you are communicating with hears and understands you. We would use names, physical contact, and eye contact amongst the team to make sure we all understood each other while maneuvering to retrieve our MOB.

But nothing about using an engine. I just do not see how this is tolerated. And yet it is the way of those who would call on me to defend my ride on Sailing Anarchy. But there is more.

With 20-25 knots of wind and a flogging sail the noise level is incredible. If any of the crew has any hearing loss it becomes essentially impossible to communicate with them just by yelling.

Again. The MOB happened because the engine wasn't used to dodge the waves. And it is important to note that an MOB isn't a big deal on boats like Pywacket or any boat that uses its jack lines.

" No matter how important weight is on a boat, make sure you have a change of clothes on board that fits the largest person. We sail in really cold water so we always have polar fleece pants, top, socks, towel, sleeping bag and foulies on the boat. Of course this is in addition to a full medical kit for advanced care.
" Be prepared for adrenaline crashes from anyone on the boat after the event. 30 minutes after the heart rate slows is a good estimate. Everyone is different so they exhibit their own combination, some get the shivers, others get shaking hands, dizziness, ringing ears, and others get a headache equivalent to a migraine. Keep them comfortable, watch them, and keep them engaged. It goes away within an hour. In our case some of the crew on board actually had more adrenaline crash symptoms than our MOB.
" Check your safety equipment regularly to make sure it works, get it inspected regularly, and call the manufacturers to see if there are any mods or improvements they have made since your purchase.. Our MOM-8 is brand new but hung during deployment. A quick call to the manufacturers found that within the past year they have improved the UV cover that protects the unit in the case which was the part that hung during the deployment. The company is trading out our 1 year old pack with an updated module, which shows they stand behind their products.

This is so typical of this boat's operator. It is never a training or comprehension proplem. They got some poor sucker to fix the electrolisis problem with their keel as well. It is blame others first then start thinking. It is blame mighetto mostly. Well let the JN crew stand down now. Its an IRC world in the US now.

" People with prescription lenses may lose their glasses or contacts if they go overboard. Have a second pair onboard or be prepared to have to trade out rail positions after they come back topsides.
" Most of us talk about what to do during a MOB with each of us in our respective positions. What it really important to remember is that those same things have to be done regardless where each person actually is on the boat at that moment in time. Our pit person was at the transom at the time of the MOB, I was cleaning up runners, the crew boss was hidden under the mainsail, and the lead runner person was down below. During a MOB the biggest thing is to remember what has to happen and look around to see what needs to be done and what you can do to help. Since our pit person was not in their spot, someone else had to get the heaving line and hit the MOB button on the GPS. Since our jib trimmers were "engaged" elsewhere someone else had to trim the jib. With the tactician handling the MOB logistics, the crew boss would normally handle the boat operations, but since he was engaged with something else one of the other crew directed the boat operations. The goal is for everyone to know what has to be done be able to actively step in and do it. Practice and chalk talks are important as everyone needs to know every action that has to be done regardless of their normal role on the boat.

The main sail trimmer during this episode was a bowman prior to this race. He has reported that Tripp Gal expects the manufacturer of the main sail to replace it under warantee. Look, they will not start an Americas Cup or TP52 race if the winds are blowing over 20k. What makes Tripp Gal think the main should be covered under warrantee on her Tripp 43. Oh yea a product defect was on record.

We had a great day out and even the MOB resulted in an improvement in crew morale. It took 2 minutes and 52 seconds from start to finish in challenging conditions with a partially disabled boat. We are proud with our MOB for his composure and confidence in us and are very proud with the boat and ourselves for being able to affect the rescue in under 3 minutes. The crew included ocean racers, sailing instructors, and coaches and it was the first time that all of us had been in a scenario where all the "traditional" methods would have not worked to recover the MOB quickly or could have potentially injured him or the crew. Quick thinking and creativity led to a very fast and safe recovery. I would go anywhere, any time with this team.. In addition, it is a pleasure and an honor to have been a part of the Swiftsure Race and to be on the same course with true sailors and seamen like those off White Cloud, we wish them all the best during Van Isle 360.

White Cloud did win the Van Isle 360. One wonders why the radio wasn't effective at contacting her. I kind of doubt an attempt was even made. Thanks to all for encouraging me to let the above fly. I think some good will come of it. Likely there is some kind of inquiry going on. I hope so anyway. See http://www.ussailing.org/pressreleases/2005/rescuebalder.htm for the Crew of Balder Receives US SAILING’s Arthur B. Hanson Rescue Medal article. The captain of Balder is a Society member. there are crew members on JN that are also society members but not Tripp Gal. She will not join as long as I am a member. Lessons learned: I encourage crew prospects to check with former crew on old race boats before boarding, especially ones that will not crew for that captain ever again. Oh, make certain you or someone you trust knows how to use the engine and radio and seriously, water ballasted vessels perform better than fixed keel boats in heavy weather.

 

water ballasted boats tend to have fixed keels. Unless you are Mari-Cha IV.

 

water ballasted boats tend to have fixed keels. Unless you are Mari-Cha IV.

Assuming I have my Romans correct, the designers of Mari-Cha IV have a new canting keel vessel that does not use water ballast. The canting keel is retractable however and there is nothing preventing the addition of tanks at a future date. You can view the tanks as water tight compartments until they are deployed if you want. There is no doubt that water ballast makes for a better rough water boat any more.

"The Cascails fleet exhibited a good representation of current offshore design, and it was interesting to see how they fared. Sitting on the weather rail of a Corel 45 was a pretty uncomfortable mix of the offshore washing machine spin-and-wash cycles that many of us are familiar with. It was pretty galling to watch the water-ballasted boats taking the conditions very much in their stride - and with significantly more comfort for their crews. It is probably fair to say that this was one of the tougher offshore races that I have completed - and that includes the Sidney to Hobart."

Chris Little, Commodore
Seahorse International
November 2004 pg 4

I have this other quote that is related to the 1/2 TP52

"I'm occasionally asked if I miss the larger, deep draft sailboat. The answer is always no. That type of craft now seems to me like a helpless one-legged seabird soaring above the surface of the sea, never able to safely land or seek shelter."

Ron Hoddinott
Small Craft Advisor
March/April 2006 issue, pg 26

and also this one that I think has been discussed

"Most experienced sailors agree that it is rarely the vessel that fails in a crisis, but rather the crew. A trailerable sailboat can ride out a storm at sea just like a larger vessel, and, in some sea conditions, you might even be better off with a light-weight boat than with a heavy displacement yacht. I don't want to be at sea in a severe storm in a trailerable boat any more than I want to be there in any vessel. But, given good seamanship and safe boat handling, the trailerable is just as safe as the larger yacht."

Christopher Caswell in 1982
Trailerable Sailboats, pg 15

What makes all this discussion so timely is the phenominon of IRC. On Sailing Anarchy I think the editor has gotten himself in hot water over a leadership of the US post he made. There is a time to lead and a time to follow. With sailing, the US has to follow now. There will not be a competitive race team from the US otherwise. On other leadership maters, well that is for the editor of Sailing Anarchy to defend except I will say that Microsoft's 800 million plus payment to IBM bodes well for a Jackson nomination to the supreme court. Jackson is famous for his quotes along the lines of: See a duck and it usually is a duck. (IE see a monopoly and it usually is a monopoly.) As the EU drives software develoment so must it lead in sailing technology.

"It is a waste of time to try to update a duck. A duck is naturally beautiful with simple lines. If you (modify it) then you will only have proven to the world that you were blind to its simple beauty in the first place."

Ference Mate
Best Boats To Build Or Buy
pg 78 One For The Eyes BCC

 

It's a tripp 47. You could sell it and buy at least 4 or 5 M26's with
the money. Go for it... race her.

"I encourage crew prospects to check with former crew on old race boats
before boarding, especially ones that will not crew for that captain ever again."
What are you trying to say here? It sounds like a lunatic rant and
character assasination eluding to something that's probably untrue.
I sailed on NJ once for a practice, and enjoyed it. I didn't get my
schedule coordinated in time to let them know when I would be
available before all of the races were fully crewed. I don't think NJ
has any problem getting crew. It also does pretty wel for an "Old Boat".

The engine is not needed if you know how to sail. If your first
response is to start the engine, you'll be screwed when it doesn't
start. Getting sails down and starting an engine wastes time.
Learn to sail... then you won't NEED the engine every time
the wind shifts or conditions get a little rough. Engine was on,
and was not needed. I'd rather be picked up by a true sailor
than by some goofball with a churning prop who wil just as
likely end up shredding me like a frog in a blender. The motor
is not a first resort or a last resort... it is a tool, and usually
other tools do a better job if you know how to use them.

I did think it looked like a bit of hyperbole to have 5 crew lose
their balance in the cockpit and one almost go overboard and another
go overboard. I've been in some rough conditions, and never seen
that sort of problem except amongst drunk crew. Navitae Juvenis
is a "dry boat", so that's not likely the reason. Still it seems odd.

If you reef correctly, you don't get a new outhaul. The reef line
should hold the sail to the boom, and the outhaul should be used
in the way it normally is, except it is attached to the reef cringle
instead of the clew (the new clew, in effect). It may require a short
loop of line to do this if it is normally shackled to the clew.

Jacklines were rigged. Tether use is up to the crew, as it should be.
At night, tethers should be used by everyone, but in daylight, it's
dependent upon what is happening at the time. Obviously they were
able to see the MOB & retrieve quickly. Tether was not needed.

 

You've GOT to be kidding me! The Mac 26, by virtue of it's lateral stability enhancing device (read: centerboard), among other things, is NOT designed to be a ocean crossing vessel. A keelboat of any sort, ie with a proper keel such as a full keel of any type or some sort of long keel (like a wing keel or something along those lines). Centerboard? No, not for ocean racing, or even for ocean crossing! Sure, you could do it, but not particularly safely or without a hell of a lot of heeling. And, the Mac's water ballast is also particularly unsuited for passagemaking, cruising etc. as it not only decreases interior volume but also raises the center of gravity, hurting your stability greatly.

Now, to explain away the Mac 26 site:

"Unless the water ballast tank is completely full, with 1000 pounds of water ballast, the sailboat is not self-righting." Too blasted slow with that ballast, plus it lowers your freeboard! Take a REAL stability enhancer. And, by the way, though the boat is self righting, you need the water, messing up the boat's speed and power.

"If the tank is empty, carry no more than 4 persons, or 640 pounds." Ok, so if we want to go fast, then we must not have ballast, but if we want to carry 4 or more people or "have the sails up" then we are s...l....o....w going.

"If the waves are larger than one foot, they can induce a lot of rolling motion and compromise stability. Keep the ballast tank full in such conditions." Wow, larger than one foot compromises stability, that sounds pretty sad...Any proper cruising boat need not worry about foot high seas...

"Most small sailboats, with their round bottoms, have speeds limited to around 5 to 6 mph." Please! I've been on Lasers, heck, dozens of different types of boats are faster that 5-6 mph. Lies, lies and more lies.

"This is why racing sailboat keels are deep" Well, yes, the Mac's daggerboard is deep, but certainly not heavy enough to work like a proper keel.

Now, about the interior: In heavy seas, you'll roll around and be highly uncomfortable in such large, wide bunks. That's a bad thing, no matter what.

So, I repeat: The Mac is NOT for cruising or transpac/transat or transocean NO MATTER WHAT.

 

Mighetto-
You are confusing Maximus with Mari-Cha IV. Maximus is the one with the retractable canting keel, while Mari-Cha has water ballast, canting keel, and twin assymetrical boards. Water Ballast boats are not good heavy weather boats because your center of gravity is in the hull rather than deep below it. If you took a Mac26 offshore in 10 foot seas it would either roll over or pitchpole, depending on the course it was steering and where the waves were coming from.


I dont know why i bother to post in this thread but oh well

 

Marc,

It's a tripp 47. You could sell it and buy at least 4 or 5 M26's with
the money. Go for it... race her.

Actually Murrelet did better the Tripp 47. Gig Harbor - Islands race. Murrelet finished. NJ did not. Crew probably wanted to get to the beer.

"I encourage crew prospects to check with former crew on old race boats
before boarding, especially ones that will not crew for that captain ever again."

What are you trying to say here? It sounds like a lunatic rant and
character assasination eluding to something that's probably untrue.
I sailed on NJ once for a practice, and enjoyed it. I didn't get my
schedule coordinated in time to let them know when I would be
available before all of the races were fully crewed. I don't think NJ
has any problem getting crew. It also does pretty well for an "Old Boat".

I am trying to say that it was possible to predict what happened at Swiftsure from my experiences on Sailing Anarchy with Tripp Gal just as it was possible to predict that Bill Gates would ignore laws because he quit (or was asked to leave) Harvard. I do not appologize for pointing out that she does harm by taking on newbes and training them. Part of the training is to close ones mind to new designs and to rational design - especially when it comes to engines. Her crew should be comprised of like minded individuals and not those who have possibility for greatness.

The engine is not needed if you know how to sail. If your first
response is to start the engine, you'll be screwed when it doesn't
start. Getting sails down and starting an engine wastes time.
Learn to sail... then you won't NEED the engine every time
the wind shifts or conditions get a little rough.

This is the training that is misguided. We who want the US Sailor to be competitive internationally are working to change that training. BTW the notion of an engine being bad on a sailboat probably came from the Snark. She was fitted with a wonderful potential engine, a 70 hp gas powered deal, that was ridiculed to the point that poor Jack gave up trying to perfect it. Had it been perfected things would be as they are becoming.

No sailboat - especially an old race boat - should leave port without an engine that is in working order and reliable. You are not just dealing with mother nature, you are dealing with the mass of other boaters including clueless boaters on auto pilot with no lookouts and commercial traffic.

On some boats, and this may include NJ, dodging must be used in rough sea to prevent broaching. This technique uses the engine and a smalll head sail to keep the vessel pointing into the oncoming waves. This technique should have been used to prevent the MOB. It was not. We can be kind and say it was a training issue rather than arogance along the lines of damn if I am going to use that stinking engine. But the later is more likely given Tripp Gals report and the knowledge that she had had engine trouble earlier in the year.

Engine was on, and was not needed. I'd rather be picked up by a true sailor than by some goofball with a churning prop who will just as
likely end up shredding me like a frog in a blender. The motor
is not a first resort or a last resort... it is a tool, and usually
other tools do a better job if you know how to use them.

Engine was reported on but could it be put in gear? Was there a problem getting it turned on right after the main ripped? Was starting the engine part of the normal operating procedure when there is a sail mishap. It should be is what the Crew of Balder might say.

The motor on a modern sailboat is the auxiliary source of power but it is also the first piece of safety equipment. Think about an injured crew member in need of medical assistance on shore. Without that reliable engine and wind and sea conditions favorable to reaching the medics there is delay. Delay that you do not have by using the engine. Think about a no wind day, a direct upwind course to the medical assistance and heavy sea.

Tripp Gal's engine prop is not likely to shred frogs. Most inboard engines on sailboats place the prop before the rudders. Note that outboard engines are used for water skiing. The fact of that should indicate to you that this shredding business is a training issue. It is exactly the training that US Sailing is now addressing by offering powerboat training. All modern sailboats are also powerboats. Replica tall ships are also powerboats. Clearly powerboat training is something that should be gained.

I did think it looked like a bit of hyperbole to have 5 crew lose
their balance in the cockpit and one almost go overboard and another
go overboard. I've been in some rough conditions, and never seen
that sort of problem except amongst drunk crew. Navitae Juvenis
is a "dry boat", so that's not likely the reason. Still it seems odd.

Dry boat. Well that clarifies things. The Windseakers use dry boats to attract young adults of age 14 to 20. It is the attraction of these new sailors to operate boats that do not support the Rise of the American Sailor to which I object most to.

If team building is the training being given then the tall ships such as those last week in Tacoma are the way to go. This is also the case if the intention is to build enthusiasm for the sport of sailing. If it is competitive sailing that is being taught then a planing and positive flotation vessel is recommended. I believe those are available through the CYC Seattle. Tripp 47 training is not productive for those new to the sport who just may have the potential for greatness. That potential can be snuffed out by Tripp 47 training.

I make this statement as an individual approached yesterday by the National Quartermaster Association about the Western Region
Qualifying Race for the 2006 Koch Cup and establishing an NQA chapter in the Pacific Northwest. The Windseakers need to get out of the way. The qualifying race is in September. The Koch Cup in 2007. The VO70 Black Pearl crew yet to be identified. There is great opportunity for newbes who by prior training do not have to unlearn the ways of failed experimentation with fixed external fin keels.

Boats that sink, with Captains, that instruct newbes to close there minds to modern design, movable ballast, and motors just are not the place to put newbes. Crew trained not to see impropriety, to shun those with contrary opinion, and to testify falsly for the good of the team during protest hearings are what I fear most and think I have observed to often.

I appreciate your mentioning the dry boat status of Navitae Juvenis. For about a year I have been attemting to connect a certain J80 owner who has an adversion to the use of radio for race starts and safety during a race and even use of cell phones to Tripp Gal. This individual was recently involved in a protest by the crew of Balder as well as an attempy to close down the bars at Toliva Shoal and the Society.

I, and others have spent over a year trying to school this individual but he is an old sea dog and very much a character. A likable guy but still someone that is holding back the sport of sailing in the US and teaching ways about engines and boat design that need to give way. This individual also had trouble at a different Swiftsure involving engine use. Because of the underpowered outboard or because of its mounting on a poor buttock design, he required a tow after sea conditions became unfavorable. Rather than see the poor design of his J80 he pretends that engines have no important place on a racing sail boat. They are again - the primary safety item.

If you reef correctly, you don't get a new outhaul. The reef line
should hold the sail to the boom, and the outhaul should be used
in the way it normally is, except it is attached to the reef cringle
instead of the clew (the new clew, in effect). It may require a short
loop of line to do this if it is normally shackled to the clew.

True, you get the same effect as a loose footed main. I think. I wish to point out that the ways of the TP52s, and the ways of many race boat crews prevent them from comprehending that reefing on a modern design can actually make the boat sail faster. The TP52s are meant to be sailed over 24 degrees - the best I can tell and this design is to exploit the box rule. The usual rule of thumb is that if the boat is heeling more than that she needs to be reefed. I will now point out that no bow persons would have been required if Navitae Juvenis had used roller furling.

Jacklines were rigged. Tether use is up to the crew, as it should be.
At night, tethers should be used by everyone, but in daylight, it's
dependent upon what is happening at the time. Obviously they were
able to see the MOB & retrieve quickly. Tether was not needed.

The entire MOB incident should have been avoided by the use of the engine. The design of the buttocks on the Tripp 47 clearly had much to do with recovering the MOB. TP52s also have this design. But they also are oddly constricted in what kind of engine is mounted. A stong engine means more manuverability in rough conditions to pick up a MOB. Say a designer wants a 70 hp in a TP52. Shouldn't it be possible to reduce the weight in the bulb to compensate for the weight of the engine?

 

You bother because you care about the sport. Here is what we know from the TP52 debacle. It is fair to call this a debacle because no designer now cares to be associated with them. Farr especally - look at what they are doing with the VOLVO 70s .

No vessel with a limit of positive stability greater than 110 can be knocked over by wind alone. It takes a keel in concert with wave action to do that. The kind of keel fitted on TP52s. Hence, the compromise is 128 lps. This is a compromise because the weight to do this must be carried in the vessel or on the keel. That is not so with a water ballasted vessel which can move the water off the boat. Regarding the Mac26x. Small vessels behave differently in 10 foot swells than 52 footers. Light small vessels behave like the life rafts that crews of larger vessels get into when they must be abandoned possibly because of taking on water from the cracks created by a fin keel with a bulb worked on by sea action.