TKO Electric / Solar Concept

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by TKOUSA, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. Jeremy Harris
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Jeremy Harris Senior Member

    I've got a range of BLDC motors/PM alternators here (they are exactly the same machines). RPM is irrelevant, it's a simple energy equation - energy in MUST equal energy out.

    I suggest you just build your machine and prove us all wrong. After all, I was only a humble senior principal scientist, with a couple of degrees (one in electronic engineering) before I retired a couple of years ago, so I probably know nothing about physics..................

    You've clearly got all the knowledge and understanding you need, so I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. TKOUSA
    Joined: Jul 2012
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    Location: Minnesota

    TKOUSA Junior Member

    LOL - I don't have a degree in Physics, but I do have several things I've invented used by a little group called NASA. Steven Jobs once said of me that "Tom has quantum leaps in logic" --- but I have learned that stepping people through the discovery process is my weak spot. This blog shows that in spades. I started calling it a solar boat, which it is not now, and I did not explain the system proposed well ... I am sorry to say that communication is a "fine art" that I continue to work on with my own type of coloring book, and very wide strokes ... I often find myself going back to the many steps to add more detail .. it is my shortcoming, and I own it.
     
  3. aranda1984
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Location: Vancouver, B.C.

    aranda1984 aranda1984

    The incredible floating machine...

    I have truly enjoyed reading all the posts on this subject.

    Some good free information, served on a platter, to guide a derailed technical dream back to reality. The best fiction I read in a while.

    I had dealt in my business (Self employed R & D) with people who were absolutely certain that splitting water into it's components and igniting the gas in an IC engine will drive a large Cadillac without any other energy input.
    (Claim: 2 oz of water will take a dune buggy at 60 MPH to 60 miles!)

    Another genious came in saying that he invented the magnetic motor that needs absolutely no power input...

    I met a brilliant inventor who had devised a compressed air machine. You take a high pressure compressed air and drive a turbine with this.. Now this turbine drives a car and also drives a compressor that replenishes the air in the tank...
    If one compressor is not producing enough air, we will put two on the system.

    The first guy spend over $ 50K before he finally believed what I was saying from day one... (NO FREE LUNCH.)

    The second guy, well he worked on it for over 15 years.. he said it was almost working...

    The third was kicked out from many reputable engineering companies for trying to get funding...

    Why did they belive in the impossible? ...You ask!

    First, a little knowledge can be very dangerous!
    Secondly, it was on the internet! Therefore it must be true!

    The poster of this wet dream... (as we know it) well, the very basic logic is wrong. The answer can be find in high school physics.
    The batteries are the wrong choice, the alternators aren't the best to do a job like this. They both suffer from weight/energy density ratio problems. The gear reduction is a friction loving energy eater...

    ....Yes I can clearly see it now.
    You use the batteries to start the motor and once the motor is running, you disconnect the batteries because the rotating shaft, that is connected to the motor is driving a bunch of alternators (and the propeller) and they in turn generate power to run the motor that drives the shaft, which drives the alternators to generate power to drive the shaft... etc...

    Ax far as getting a patent on this idea: nothing to it. You can actually patent a left handed belly button scratcher. They will take your money! No problem!

    ...Now why didn't I think of that.

    My invention is a car which has bigger rear wheels then the ones on the front... you see, this car is constantly running down hill.

    It should move forward on its own..

    However, there is a minor problem, I don't know how to reverse it!
    Maybe I will apply for some government grant... and solve this minor thingy!

    With due respect (and my aplologies to those in the know): I'll be the monkey's uncle!

    Stephen I. M.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  4. Red Dwarf
    Joined: Jun 2012
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    Location: USA California

    Red Dwarf Senior Member

    At first it was funny but now it is just sad and a little scary. I hate to see someone so deluded they will drink the Kool-Aid because they believe they absolutely know the answer.
     
  5. TKOUSA
    Joined: Jul 2012
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    Location: Minnesota

    TKOUSA Junior Member

    Stephen I. M.
    I put out a problem and got the answer. The funny thing about school is that the teacher never made fun of me for asking a question ... I guess the same rules do not apply here. Luckily I have broad shoulders and I can take it. The blog as a whole has been enlightening. I certainly appreciate the very candid conversation. Those who are more experienced in the field of electronics have been very patient, and have recommended pointing me toward other directions. I certainly do appreciate recommendations within the blog.
     
  6. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    TK,

    This forum is incredibly helpful, and generally not very attacking. But you are trying to create a over-unity device. And despite the huge numbers of Internet forums where people have attempted to do just that, no one has ever been successful.

    If anyone, had ever succeeded, our entire world would be different. Just think of the things we could do with effectively unlimited cheap power.

    1) eliminate global warming
    2) true atmospher control
    3) incredibly faster and cheaper travel
    4) products at a fraction of their current price
    5) solar exploration at a fraction of the cost
    6) deep see exploration at minimal cost
    The list goes on and on.

    If you are the one who figures out how to make it work you will be the richest man on the planet in a matter of days. Screw a throw away boat, you would control the means of production for all of the worlds industries.

    Even if you gave away plans, the profit from book deals, engineering lectures, movie rights, ect would still make you an incredibly wealthy man.


    So why hasn't anyone ever done it? Newtons first law of thermodynamics, that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Making power from an alternator requires a certain amount of work to be done. And no alternator in the world can output more work than goes into making it generate. The fundamental laws of physics simply don't allow for it.

    It might, be possible to harness quantum energy to scavange power, but at this point we can't even begin to figure out how. And even there, it will effect some other part of the system.
     
  7. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    And Aranda, the patent office actually requires a working model of a perpetual motion machine. So you can't patent the ideas until they have been proven to work. This is the only class of machine that requires this btw.
     
  8. TKOUSA
    Joined: Jul 2012
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    Location: Minnesota

    TKOUSA Junior Member

    PMA = Permanent Magnet Alternator

    Here are few PMA configurations. I hope the notations and drawings are good enough for the Physics people / scientists here ... as I consider myself a novice ...
     

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  9. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    Nobody makes fun of you here for asking a question the *first* time.

    It's determination to be right in the absence of basic physics knowledge that gets you ridiculed.

    Perhaps your school teachers should have spent more time *teaching* you science and less time massaging your self-esteem.

    I'm firmly in the 'build working model, don't just talk about it' camp when it comes to projects that violate physics as it's currently understood. If you can demonstrate a working device, I'll agree the physics theory is inadequate and needs revision. Until then, you're wasting your time and providing amusement for the bystanders like me, nothing more.

    PDW
     
  10. portacruise
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Location: USA

    portacruise Senior Member

    Perpetual

    I had a good Physics teacher in college.

    Isn't there a superconducting electric power ring being maintained many years now, in a lab somewhere that approaches perpetual motion? It takes external energy to keep the ring temperature cold, but that external energy could be negated IF we had a room temperature SC material. There must be losses, even without power being withdrawn, so I would assume this is just a gradual coast down that might last centuries? Might there be an equivalent mechanical version, with superfluidity?

    Second law of thermodynamics defines what is perpetual (chaos increasing) and we have machines that harness that, though I don't think they are particularly efficient?

    Porta
     
  11. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    Porta,

    You are correct that electricity flowing through a superconductor does so without any resistance, thus no heat loss, and is therefore a perpetual motion machine. Ignoring the input energy to keep the superconductors cold of course.

    What TK is describing thoughts what's referred to as an over unity device. Where more energy exits the system than enters it. This is impossible.
     
  12. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    TKOUSA, Let me help you a little. The only way you could maybe materialize your dream is the following.

    If you have a sailing boat, the wind is blowing at the right angle into the sails and the boat will move forward. Perpetual motion?? NO, the volume of wind power has to be much greater than the resistance the boat has, in the water.

    Now let’s assume, you change your tune and direction. You have 2 x , three phase Brushless Permanent Magnet Motors of up to 7,5 KW (normally 72 Volt) You connect this BPMM to 3 wires and connect this to the same type BPMM linked to a propeller. don't worry I have tried it, If you turn the wind BPMM, the propeller BPMM will also turn, provided the wind BPMM turns firmly in the wind with high tech wind blades. There is the trick, high tech wind blades, which needs as a complete system some 25% more wind power to overcome the overall loss in efficiency, You cables 2 % loss, Your wind BPMM 8 % (efficiency taken as 92%) and the same for your propeller BPMM efficiency 8% and an extra 5% for your propeller efficiency. To enable you to move directly in the wind, you probably will need your 4 batteries and give the propeller BPMM a little help.

    You will get quite far. But the trick lies in the large high tech wind blades for your wind BPMM. How stable the boat will be is a big question, without some weight below the waterline. But at least your boat will be able to move on 4 rather small batteries as you have in mind.
    Bert
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  13. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    There are to things I forgot to mentioning.
    a) You must be wondering how you would stop. Simple. You have in the 3 phase cables to the PBMM, somewhere at a convinient place a change over switch, with a nul position. To stop slowly , you change the switch to neutral. You want to stop rather fast, you put the switch on the position whereby two wires of those BPMM are swapped and the prop will be put in reverse.
    b)The best would be if you would buy, or make , a 4 pole PBMM. At lower windspeeds, you have a better control.
    c) BPMM stands for Brushless Permanent Magnet Motors, for those who also hate to see abriviations and have no idea where it stands for.
    d) somebody like Jeremy Harris can sketch a design for a efficient wind blade, if you ask him nicely.
    e) Your design, just accept it , that it is technical impossible.
     
  14. Liighthead
    Joined: Jul 2012
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    Location: Girgarre aus

    Liighthead Junior Member

    only problem. anyone who trys to make unlimited power.. cars run on water ect..
    disappear in one way or another lol

    yeah it can be done one way or another, simple way that works for me,
    i have a solar panel ( smallish one like 15watts ) to charge batterys, when camping it powers lights small electric pumps/motors for different things, doesnt cost anything ( compared to fuel costs ) on a big day, will pretty much drain a average deep cycle car battery, having 2 battery's one charges while other gets used.. simple but works. could go much more complex, with alternators ect.. but what i got pretty much just got thrown together lol

    nice thread though good to read :) thinking bout making something... along those lines for my next boat lol
     

  15. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    You see Lighthead, my philosophy is:
    If there is lots of wind, use the wind with BPMM motors between high tech wind generator and propeller. One could go up to 10 KW - 20 KW. If there is no wind, but sun only, the sea will be smooth and you could use solar power with one to 2 KW with folding up solar panels. I hear already somebody saying: use sails. Yes, if one is young and strong. But one gets older, I would prefer something what need less strength. If there is no wind and sun, paddle and use the storage in the batteries. One day the areal solar panel will be brought on the market, than it would be a piece of cake.

    All what one need is a qualified person like Jeremy to put up some sketches on how a high tech solar wind collector should look like on a boat? The BPMM wind to BPMM propeller works, but only tested with a hand-drill machine. Now we need a designer to put a solid design on paper with a high tech horizontal wind collector. The above would pretty close to Perpetual motion.
     
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