Tite Bond glue for a 27' strip plank hull?

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by Thomas Wick, Apr 15, 2007.

  1. Thomas Wick
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    Thomas Wick Junior Member

    I recently read in a book titled the "Boat Builder's Apprentice," that Tite Bond wood glue, the water proof stuff, can be used to bond the individual Western Red Cedar planks together, along with broze boat nails for example. Cheaper, less toxic and of course water clean up are the big reasons not to use Epoxy or Resorcinol. Is this a crazy idea even with the exterior of the boat being covered with biax and epoxy. I do not plan on glassing the inside of the hull, if that makes a difference? I will put 2-3 coats of epoxy over the interior as a moisture barrier. Would vey much appreciate some guidance...

    Thomas
     
  2. duluthboats
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    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

    The best advice is to follow the plans. With all the epoxy used on the sheathing and the interior a little more between the strips wouldn’t hurt. I used wood glue including Tite Bond II on my canoes and kayaks between the strips. In this use the glue holds the strips in place until they are glassed over inside and out to form a composite much stronger than the wood strip core. In most cases the bond for wood glues if properly used is stronger than the wood. The question is will that bond last over time? I would have more faith in the epoxy long term.

    Gary
     
  3. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    I've used polyurethane glue, called "Gorilla glue" for scarfing masts or laminating spars, and for various other uses on boats, and the more I use it, the more I like it.
    It is waterproof, one part, requires tight fits, foams out (which fills gaps), and is available at every hardware store.
    It can't be used to build thickness. Only epoxy can do that. I would use polyurethane anywhere old-timers would have used resorcinol.
    A varient of this glue is used to make panels called "Advantek" used to deck houses. I've left pieces of Advantek in puddles outside for months and measured their thickness afterwards, and they do not expand.
    Elmers makes the same thing for less money. $50.00 worth would probably be enough to strip-plank a canoe.
    I would like to faind out where I could purchase a gallon, which I would transfer to small bottles to keep it fresh for use, if anyone knows of such a thing.

    Alan
     
  4. duluthboats
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    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

  5. Roly
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    Roly Senior Member

    With all your outlay of time & expense My vote is for epoxy. Just is not worth the risk.My motto;"Any doubt,then epoxy it."
    Next choice would be resorcinol, but clamping pressure and tightness of joints are too critical. Besides I am currently rebuilding a resorcinol glued stripper where the glue lines let go.(After 30yrs.) Epoxy is also a gap filler.
    As for cheap water clean up glues, Scrimp now....pay later.......
    Here, PU (gorilla) is the same price or more expensive than epoxy.
    No contest.
    BTW-Wet gorilla forms a carcinogen on contact with your skin.
     
  6. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    It's true that gorilla glue isn't cheap. However, it is effective if the joint is tight, that is, one has mated the two surfaces as if for resorcinol. I would guess that twice as much epoxy would be used to cover both surfaces as effectively.
    Epoxy would be far more in the quantities such as Gorilla glue comes in, but as said, I would try to get a gallon if possible.
    Epoxy will make up for poor fits. If one isn't confident that their fit is perfect, then use epoxy.
    There are a lot of folks who haven't the experience to produce tight fits. Richard Pulsifer, who builds 22' white pine strip launches that sell for maybe $35k-40k, uses NO glue. His fits are good enough that expansion alone seals the joint.
    There are also a lot of ameteurs building boats. Many must depend on very forgiving gap-filling adhesives to ensure a good job where other adhesives would do. Then epoxy is vital.
    I doubt epoxy would cost only $6.00 for 4 oz, if it were sold that way. Elmers brand polyurethane is about that price.
    I would strip a canoe with the Gorilla type, especially if bead and cove. It wipes off with paint thinner. What squeezes out is foam, which sands off easily. I would of course use epoxy/cloth to cover a strip job that wasn't edge-nailed.
    Remember that wood has very little strength across the grain, especially where cedar, pine, or similar woods are concerned. The glue joint is making a wide board out of a lot of smaller ones. Take a piece of 3/4" x 3/4" cedar and start a split in the end of it with a saw. Drop two strings into the slot and pull in opposite directions. There's your cross-grain strength---- next to nothing.
    Almost any waterproof glue will be orders of magnitude stronger.
    In laminating spars, I've used both epoxy and Gorilla glue, later switching to Gorilla. I would guess a two piece layup 4" x 15' would use less than 4 oz of Gorilla, and leave a lighter glue line too.
    I remember a guy who built a 16 ft daysailer from Sam Rabl's plans and he had so much confidence in the magical properties of epoxy that he edge-nailed poplar (!) strips, gluing with white Elmers (!), and fastening with ungalvanized (!) finish (!) nails. An extreme example of someone who'd BETTER use epoxy if he intends for his boat to last more than two seasons. Even so, if water does get in there, the boat's pretty much going to fall apart.

    Alan
     
  7. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    That was a good thread, Gary. I've never used alphatic glues on boats. The info dealing with regluing was interesting. The question of removing glue from a crack between two strips because one isn't sure if epoxy will bond to glue alone has bothered me some in the past. It's helpful to hear that resorcinol in particular need only be cleaned (maybe saturate with acetone and then blow out with high pressure air).

    A.
     
  8. duluthboats
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    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

  9. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    Now there's another adhesive family----- caulking types. Expensive but effective, and one wonders if the same stuff sells by the gallon or larger quantity since it could easily be applied with a toothed trowel, putty knife, cardboard cartridge, or empty squeezable glue bottle.
    Limited shelf life... quite short actually, but why? Does the stuff begin setting up as soon as it's manufactured? Apparently! I have bought (for next to nothing) expired caulking adhesives and still used them successfully, not as an adhesive, but for bedding (and auto body work to seal edges!).

    A.
     
  10. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    Thomas:

    My guess is that you might choose between the Titebond and a Polyurethane.
    Epoxy is great, but since you batch-mix it, a lot gets wasted. I'd go with PE over Titebond myself because I think the difference in price won't be the biggest issue. You may wish to lay as little as single strip sometimes, or not rush because a batch of epoxy is curing. Also, cleanup is easier with the other two (water or thinner (naptha works even better)).
    Depending on how you approach the project, how much you can spend, what hours you'll work, how sensitive you are to epoxy, etc., only you can know.
    What design are you building, if I might ask?

    A.
     
  11. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    Micro-batching of epoxy:

    Using two clear drinking straws, mark proportions in inches or cms on the side of the straws and set down into the resin and hardener until the liquid reaches the line marked, cap straw and withdraw (quickly), squeeze well onto flat mixing surface. Great for tiny jobs like filling a hole or whatever.
    Hardly any waste, zero container cost, very accurate.

    A.
     
  12. Thomas Wick
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    Thomas Wick Junior Member

    Mr. White,

    You asked about the design of the boat I am building...I hesitate to respond as I am venturing out on my own...designing as I build. Yes, am aware of the consequences of my actions....a very expensive funny looking boat or something I am proud to say I designed and built. I purchased boat plans and studied them extensively...trying to figure out what the heck the designer wants me to do....at this point all the fun of building is gone..for me, life is about following to many directions/ rules, hence my decision to design as I build. I designed the boat by drawing the transom, the center bulkhead and stem, using battons to connect the points, amazing, no lofting of numbers that I cannot read. The key to this method was keeping port and starboard sides exactly the same from center line. A properly built laminated chine log will give you a beatiful curve to follow, unorthodox, maybe, but it works. I utilized numerous books in my design to include appropriate scantlings. Thank you for your previous responses regarding the glue!
    Thomas
     
  13. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    Go by feel... some people can do that. I see plans as suggestions, or departure points. I can completely understand why you want to build that way.
    A.
     
  14. Thomas Wick
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    Thomas Wick Junior Member

    Building by ear.... so to speak

    Mr. White,

    Thank you for not suggesting that I go check myself into the local Mental Health Unit for an evaluation. I have shared with others in the past my intentions and they feel it cannot be done. Look at the person who plays a piano but cannot read the music? Thank you for your support..

    Thomas
     

  15. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    You must be a lot like me in how you like to learn. I'm not an instruction guy.
    I've modified boats before without thinking twice, and they always sailed, usually better. I'm remodelling a catboat right now, adding a jib on a bowsprit, and generally rethinking all attachment points, creating rigging, changing scantlings (lightening some, beefing others).
    I begin to get a feel for the stresses, the leverages, the tensions and compressions, following each force through to its conclusion.
    I love doing this, dunno why. One can create something from nothing but an idea.

    A.
     
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