Thoughts on a rig please???

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by john.G, Apr 24, 2009.

  1. john.G
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    john.G Junior Member

    Anyone want to hazard a guess as to the feasibility of the following???

    For a long range offshore cruiser... something along the lines of Herreshoff's Marco Polo or Ted Brewers Arden... that is long, lean and with a three masted rig for easy handleing, an efficient power plant and deep bunkers... would it be feasible to have the rig as follows:

    Junk mizzen, junk main and either a main staysail and cutter foretriangle or a conventional marconi fore and cutter foretriangle.

    I'm trying to get a rig that is efficient for trade wind sailing but has some windward ability. And I keep thinking that besides the obvious efficiency of the junk rig with the wind anywhere abaft the beam that the cost savings inherent in the junk rig would just about buy the fuel for a circumnavigation.

    It's the windward stuff that I'm not sure on.
     
  2. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    If you like tripple rig, go cutter, three headsails and the main, but I personally would only have two sticks.

    Downwind, twins out front will pull ya nose off, upwind, the headsials work very well.
     
  3. john.G
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    john.G Junior Member

    Thanks Landlubber

    At the moment I'm thinking hard chined corten steel, about 55' long, 12' beam, draft 5' and displacement around 45 k pounds. And twin keels.

    Given the narrow beam, shoal draft and light displacement she would be very efficient under power, but it's going to force me to use short sticks and spread sail laterally.

    Junk sails seem made to order for off the wind, but the only two junk rigged hulls I've seen were poor to windward, and the keel configuration would make that worse.

    I don't expect to be trying to claw off a lee shore in a full gale, that's what iron jib is for if I'm too stupid to read a weather forecast in the first place... but some degree of windward ability would be nice. (Besides I'm past the age of wanting to be out on the foredeck arguing with a storm jib when I could be in the wheelhouse with a wheel and a throttle and a cup of coffee.:) )

    At the moment I'm just trying to get a feel for options.
     
  4. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Asking folks here about rig choices is like asking an Eskimo about snow flake choices. Everybody has personal preferences, and those preferences are also regionally and culturally skewed.

    For my money, windward ability isn't just nice to have, it is required. At this stage in my life, schedules are important as I have a young family, so I can't just wait out unfavorable winds. The school bus arrives Monday morning at 7:30, so a weekend expedition is limited to the weekend.

    Your situation is enviable where time can be traded for comfort.

    I've read a little about Junk rigs - there was recently a thread about Junk pioneers in Western settings - Halser et al. They certainly seem simple (but quite sophisiticated to experts) and by numerical user base historically probably are just as popular as Western fore and aft rigs. The design requirements for unstayed masts, stronger spars in general and keel-stepped masts may need to be considered up front.

    One question that bears asking is why a Junk rig? Is it a personal fascination and interest, or have you experienced the rig and love it's performance and simplicity?

    In my career of product development I've learned the hard way to separate my personal preferences from those of clients, and to accept the fact that a client's interests often override technical benefits. Whatever you decide, finding a naval architect experienced with the rig is critical.

    Please keep this thread current, and let people here know about your choices and progress - it is a great learning tool to watch one of these projects go from ideas to execution.

    --
    Bill
     
  5. john.G
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    john.G Junior Member

    Thanks Bill

    My own rig preference is cutter ketch, but I can't see this hull having the form stability to handle it. I've gone full circle on my requirements for this "Last boat VII" in the last two years... I started with the two hulls mentioned, dropped back to a mid 40's moderate displacement, looked hard at a 50' Colvin light displacement, then came back to where I am again.

    As with any boat it's been a matter of trade offs as to meeting her service requirements. I looked very hard at how and where I intend to use her, and decided that rather then a "true" sailing vessel I'd rather just parasite the wind. That is, have enough sail capability to reach hull speed in average wind conditions, but as soon as the wind drops off, picks up, or blows from the wrong direction start the engine. I don't want to be out on the deck in a blow or arguing with a large light air sail plan. One thing I've learnt over the years is that given a good engine and enough fuel I can always get to point A on schedule.

    Given the size and type of this hull she should have a hull speed of around 9 knots, and would want about 70 HP to drive her. Allowing two gallons an hour 200 gallons puts you 900 miles away, subject to currents and weather.

    So from that point of view the low CE, low cost and downwind ability of a junk rig makes sense. But like you I believe that windward ability is important.

    So I'm trying to figure a rig that has the benifits of a junk but can go to windward reasonably well.
     
  6. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    john.G,

    Yes your hull speed is about right, but to get to hull speed you need hp, from the wind, with that tonnage, you will need say 15 knots.

    Using poled out genoas downhill, set on Profurl furling systems, you will have plenty of hp to drive her, and the power and ability upwind as well.

    Having had a few yachts over the years, the ability to sail up wind is not just nice, it is very important, so stay with the bermuda cutter, on short twin masts, double headed, and the rest will be "a breeze"

    As said previously, everyone has their own opinions and many ideas will be presented, my thoughts are from using boats for long distance cruising, as well as racing in my younger years, so I am happy with the idea, having been proven to be both easy to use and satisfying in the results.
     
  7. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    how about a colin archer ketch which are known for clawing off lee shores
     
  8. john.G
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    john.G Junior Member

    thanks Landlubber


    Yeah, that makes sense to me.... as stated my own rig preference on a cruising boat has always been cutter ketch anyway. But I'm stepping outside my "comfort zone" on this one, and figure I'd better do the same in exploring rig options.
     
  9. john.G
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    john.G Junior Member

    Thanks Peter


    They're beautifull aren't they. And they are still the safest boat type for a given length there is.

    Simply put... I can't afford it. The cost of a boat is relative to displacement not length. I can afford to build a 55' steel light displacement boat, or for the same money build a 36' Colin Archer. A Redningskoite, at 47' weighs 75 k pounds... I can't afford that boat.

    Now I admire the heavy displacement hulls for their sea keeping ability, and I've logged a few miles in them. But the fact remains that I regularly put to sea in a 65' steel fishing boat when the little guys aren't game to venture beyond the breakwater. Given a choice in rough weather I'd rather be making way on a 55', that may have had enough speed to outrun it in the first place, then lying ahull in a 36.

    If the comparable factor is displacement, or build cost, then I want the longer boat.
     
  10. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    i agree about the longer boat, i was thinking about the c a ketch rig for you rather than the whole boat
     
  11. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    Have a look at some of the Adams (Joe Adams) designs from Australia, or Van De Staadt if you like that sort of thing.
     
  12. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    A free standing, Bermudian rigged, cat ketch with sprit booms would be about as simple as you could ask for in a rig. The CE is low, the running rigging requirements are low, there's no standing rigging and you can fly a mizzen mule and/or a spinnaker down wind for an added kick in the transom.

    For offshore work, I'd shy away from very light displacement. I shoot for a D/L around 200, if not over it. Use hoisting options to gain or decrease horse power when necessary and the crew will be able to tolerate the nasty stuff when these occasions arrive.

    I'm not sure what off shore experience you have in light displacement yachts, but just going to windward is painful in moderate weather. Heavy weather is torture for most people and rough on equipment too. A higher D/L boat is easier on equipment and crew in this regard, which can't be discounted. You need you strength most when it's truly ugly outside. If the boat's kicking your butt, you're instantly at a disadvantage. It's okay on a race boat, but not a cruiser.

    You're correct in that the cost of a build is directly related to displacement. I think you need to contract a designer and get working on a design brief. You're requirements and desires are specific enough to want a custom. The result will be just what you asked for and need in a boat, rather then "making something work" from a stock or modified stock design.
     
  13. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    A Kiwi named Birdsell designs the type of boat you seek, and their owners are very happy with them.
    Junk rigs are complex, chafe prove, time and money consuming and abysmal to windward.
    Brent
     
  14. john.G
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    john.G Junior Member

    thanks landlubber

    Actually I have a copy of Joe's old design book, and while nothing there is "right", certainly he would have been my first choice for a custom design. I believe he's retired however, certainly last time I checked his web site was gone.

    Similarly I have no idea on what happened to Herman Boro's portfolio, again I've never seen one that was right, but he did have a fair bit of twin keel experience. There are a few boats he drew that I would dearly like to look at plans for.
     

  15. john.G
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    john.G Junior Member

    Thanks PAR

    Actually I have NO experience in offshore yachts. I have some inshore experience in sailing vessels, and a lot of experience in long range offshore fishing boats. Basicly my experience is that there's no such thing as a comfortable small boat in really heavy weather - just varying degrees of discomfort. Given the choice I'd still rather have a longer boat, and try and outrun bad weather under power. And my offshore fishing experience tells me that really serious weather never sneaks up behind you unannounced anymore, there are a lot of awfully accurate forecasting tools out there if you are smart enough to check them.

    I have a lot of faith in the strength of steel. Sometimes, like a lot of fishermen probably too much. And I'm a firm beliver in watertight subdivision too. She might be a bit of a pig in heavy weather but she would come through. Though I'd rather avoid it.

    I have experience on one of the Marco Polo's, and done in hard chined steel with bilge keels she would be nearly ideal. The Brewer design would be fine were it not for my draft requirement, and the fact she lacks a wheelhouse. Ultimately I agree with you that custom is the best bet for what I want, but my inner tightarse tells me I can buy a lot of plate for the $20 k extra in getting a custom design drawn.:)

    But there are a lot of smart people here and I did want to get different ideas on the rig. I want the ultimate KISS rig, and don't have enough experience in the different options to make an informed decision.
     
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