Thinning Epoxy?

West System and others have preformed "penetration" tests. I've preform these tests as well.

Again, the bottom line is the quality of the coating, not penetration amount, when it comes to water proofing wood. With typical marine grade laminating resins, this means about 10 mils of film thickness, regardless of penetration distance, this is sufficient to be considered a water proof barrier. If this barrier is well stuck to the surface of the substrate, then what do you care about the depth of it's penetration.

Again, why do you want to thin your epoxy? Unless the folks that are telling you to do so also happen to be chemists, then stop paying attention to them. If they are chemists, ask which chemicals they use, the percentages and if they are reactive, non-reactive or dilutant. With this information, run it by us and we'll have a look.

 

In new Zeanad there is a product specially formulated for the purpose you discribe to soak into wood !! Its call "Everdure "
http://www.boatbits.co.nz/shop/Pain...tional Resin, Glue, Fillers/Everdure A B.html




2 Pack)- 2ltr Kit
Product description
Two-pack, epoxy based, can be used as a wood saturation system.
Suitable above and below the waterline.
Everdure is a clear, two-pack, epoxy based material that can be used as a wood saturation system to help harden, densify and seal out moisture.
Do not apply over one-pack systems.

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
An ultra low viscosity two pack epoxy resin solution. Used as a primer for timber surfaces prior to applying a wide range of paint finishes. Also used as an aid to sealing and densifying soft timber type surfaces to reduce moisture uptake.
* Easy application
* Hard tough cured film
* Simple 1:1 mixing ratio for easy measurement of components

PRODUCT INFORMATION:
Colour- YPA310-Yellow/Amber Cured film is light amber.
Finish- Gloss
Specific Gravity- 0.9
Volume Solids- 21%
Mix Ratio- 1:1 by volume (as supplied) , Converter/Curing Agent - YPA311

DRYING-Touch Dry (ISO):

5°C: 9hrs

15°C: 5hrs

23°C: 2hrs

35°C: 1hr

Overcoating Substrate Temperature- Overcoating by Everdure:

5°C : Min 5mins, max 48hrs

15°C: Min 5mins, max 24hrs

23°C: Min 5mins, max 16hrs

35°C: Min 5mins, max, 8hrs.

APPLICATION AND USE:
Preparation- BARE WOOD: Sand with 80-280 grade paper. Remove oil from oily woods eg teak, using Universal Thinners #4. Use the 2 cloth method, changing rags frequently to avoid spreading the oil residues. When applying to bare timber by the wet on tacky method, thin the first coat 50%, the second coat 20% and the third coat 10% and subsequent coats un-thinned. Use Epoxy thinners #7.

IMPORTANT NOTES:
For further information refer to International Professional Application Manual or the International Boat Painting and Product Guide.

Method:

Apply required number of coats, detailed in the specification sheets, by method chosen or stipulated, allowing required overcoating interval between applications. Follow thinning recommendations.

Hints:

Mixing- Mix the two components thoroughly to an even colour. After mixing, allow to stand for 10-15 minutes before using.
Thinner- YTA061 YTA061 International Epoxy Thinners #7.
Cleaner- YTA061 YTA061 International Epoxy Thinners #7.
Ventilation and Humidity Control -Ensure adequate ventilation during use.

Other:

Everdure will not cure adequately below 5°C and will achieve maximum performance if cured above 10°C.

Some Important Points:

Do not use below 5°C. Product temperature should be no less than 10°C/50°F and maximum 35°C/95°F. Ambient temperature should be minimum 7°C/45°F and maximum 35°C/95°F. Substrate temperature should be minimum 7°C/45°F and maximum 35°C/95°F.

Compatibility/Substrates- Suitable for all types of wood. It should not be used over any one pack products.

Number of Coats As required

Coverage (Theoretical) - 10.00 (m²/lt) . Practical Coverage: Undiluted on bare timber - 8-10 m²/lt; Undiluted on 2nd or 3rd coat - 12-16 m²/lt; Diluted (depending on timber) - 8-16 m²/lt

Recommended DFT- 21 microns dry at 10 m²/lt

Recommended WFT- 100 microns wet at 10 m²/lt

Application Methods- Brush, Roller

 

that's some great info tunnels, BUT

our average temp here in the desert is 95°F + most of the year ... it was 94°F today and it's OCTOBER 19th ...

 

So its 35 c in the real world !
We have 38C and still use it! just mix smaller brews

 

Does epoxy stick better to hard woods or soft woods? Like if you were sticking two peices together.

 

In general, the bond is stronger than the wood itself. So if it gets damaged, the break line will show wood on both faces.

 

that would depend entirely on the grain structure of the wood species.

 

And surface prep, clamping pressure, curing environment... Given that all of these are the same...then the above is almost true. It also depends on the type of wood...oily woods tend not to glue well with most epoxies as the oils are a contaminant to the bond. Oak's acidic makeup gives another iffy bond in most circumstances (51+%)

 

forgot about waxy wood species too

 

The question is not answered,-- just depends.

What has clamping pressure got to go with it.

If soft wood and hard would were both glued in the same way, same environment etc etc

 

The key number in Everdure's case is solids content, which is 21%. Yep, that's right less then 1/4 of the product remains when it's cured. In actually, some will remain in suspension while other elements of the concoction will flash off, but you still have 21% solids. Hell, I have paints that have more solids content then that!

What Everdure and penetrating epoxies attempt to do is, firm up a crappy surface and provide a reasonably solid base for something else (like real, full strength epoxy) to bond to. There are a few places where this is helpful, but frankly, it's a waste of time and money with these products, once you understand what they are and their uses. In other words, you can use neat epoxy or viscosity reducing techniques or additives to achieve the same results as a penetrating epoxy, but have a truly waterproof coating, which these types of products don't provide.

In short, you need to understand what these chemicals do and why you use them, rather then buy into the advertising hype. Penetrating epoxies (every single brand out there folks) are NOT waterproof. Not even close. So, if waterproofness is important to your uses, then skip the penetrating goos and use good techniques and 100% solids epoxies.

If you look up the West System penetrating/thinned epoxy tests, you'll find the major players in this segment of the industry. All of them needed to have neat epoxy over them to become waterproof.

Lastly, if your bond failure is in the substrate, then your adhesive is more then sufficient, regardless of hard or softwood. Properly bonded, both hard and softwoods will not rival epoxy's grip, unless you haven't sufficient bonding area. This wouldn't be the fault of the adhesive, but the user not realizing the surface area required for the job.

 

What Everdure and penetrating epoxies attempt to do is, firm up a crappy surface and provide a reasonably solid base for something else (like real, full strength epoxy) to bond to. There are a few places where this is helpful, but frankly, it's a waste of time and money with these products, once you understand what they are and their uses. In other words, you can use neat epoxy or viscosity reducing techniques or additives to achieve the same results as a penetrating epoxy, but have a truly waterproof coating, which these types of products don't provide.

Have a boat builder friend that uses everdure for all kinds a things not only boats but bult a fence a few years back ,everdure the part that was in the ground . When we shifted part of the fence a few months back and the posts in the ground were as good as the day it was done . so must have something going for it !!. 2 coats of everdure inside of a ply wood boat is magic just a light sand to make smooth and knock off grain raise in between coats .

 

Everdure has been on the market for at least 50 years, its a good product and has its place, as there are many places in a boat where the wood will never be immersed and you dont need a 100% waterproof coating, some people use paint of all things in places inside a boat and it works fine too, you dont need 100% solids epoxy for everything,just a little common sense.
Steve.

 

Im still curious, what is the lightest weight way of providing a sealed wooden structure (suitable for inside a hull that kept in the shed other than race days) And what is the best method with epoxy to keep the weight gain minimal?

 

.. so if someone want's to build a fence feel free to use it.. thou the same result you get with burning the ground parts of the poles so the surface comes a bit charred.. and it lasts decades