these turbine alternaters are easy to make

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by Boston, Apr 1, 2009.

  1. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I was thinking with all the alternative energy sources coming along that it would be an interesting study to consider how to apply one of em to this old Elco

    what came to mind was the turbine wind generators
    they are compact and work in light airs

    [​IMG]




    these guys have all the bits and pieces
    http://www.windbluepower.com/

    so naturally I was doing some day dreaming about trying to figure out if a series of counter rotating sections could be aesthetically applied to this vessel

    the system would be an augmentation to the onboard generators

    a few considerations would be

    spinning sections opposite one another you obviously get twice the speed in the alternators although you could just gear things and forgo the technical difficulties

    placing them in a vertical position is self aligning to the wind
    but placing them horizontally allows for counter rotating segments which give more power if aligned to the wind correctly

    this is the power output of the unit that costs about $160.oo for the innards and you can junk yard all the housings you want ( they are everywhere )

    [​IMG]

    counter rotating has the advantage of working with half the wind speed
    and keeps the center of gravity low
    also you can balance the torque out
    but it would need to be on a swiveling base and have a wind vein like tail

    the vertical unit needs no swiveling base and no tail but would need to have a larger diameter in order to "skinny" up the sections and keep the center of gravity low ( less aesthetically pleasing ) but may also be able to counter rotate as long as the rigs not to tall
    both could be hidden under the canopy when in harbor and the canopy folded back when under way to allow the best air to the turbines

    wind deflectors could enhance performance but would depend on were the units would be installed

    pleasantly distracting considerations
    any input is more than welcome

    my first thoughts on this is that three vertical single generators could be placed behind the wheel house and under the canopy making for the most aesthetically appealing configuration that needs no directional adjustment or at least little as long as the wind is not directly ahead

    my second thought is to have counter rotating sections spinning horizontally lengthwise in the same location on the boat
    this would have obvious limitations based on its inability to orient itself to the best wind but allows for the most sections

    another thought is to place six smaller vertical systems on the "roof" ( less visually appealing )

    another would be to place two horizontal set ups on the "roof" and have them on a swiveling base ( way less visually appealing )

    all units can easily be magnetically suspended for efficiency

    have fun with it
    B

    oh Ill try and find the power requirement of this vessel in kilowatt hours at moderate hull speed and add it in when I find it
    not sure yet what they had originally but a rebuild was fitted with two 230 hp diesels
     
  2. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    What would the operation plan be?? 1 hour of operation , anchor for a couple of weeks and go another hour?

    FF
     
  3. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 1,824
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    Location: Duluth, Minnesota

    Steve W Senior Member

    I think it would be easier to hide a bunch of thin solar panels up on that flat top.Gorgeous boat by the way,what size is it?, it looks bigger than the 42.
    Steve.
     
  4. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 493
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -74
    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    100% for solar panels mainly.
    Roof is made for this, this is a real chance

    Also, in my mind, this kind of "savonius" rotor are not very efficient unless they use sophisticated blades ?

    Anyway, nice boat !
     
  5. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    the plan is to augment the electrical generating capacity with a more environmentally friendly system
    the top could certainly be converted to solar cells but they are pricey and heavy = more roll
    the vawt turbines are cheep to build and cheep to repair also they are lots more efficient than normal wind generators and lightweight

    that is the elco 57
    one of my favorites and looks like its begging for solar cells and a few wind generators to augment the systems powered generators

    Red you must have missed this part

    the generator pictured in the drive way is rated at 2,500 watts at
    I think it was 50 amps

    that boat is not really built for serious off shore time if you ask me
    one good wave and all that glass is gone
    most of the time a pleasure vessel is sitting in port anyway
    so why not take advantage of a nice breeze and spin up some electricity
    without making to much noise like typical wind generators

    heres the 10KW low wind version



    small enough to be gracefully hidden under the canopy and quiet
    and
    they are cheep and easy to build with the real trick in the magnetically suspended squirrel cage
    with four or more of those over the aft cabin space you might get a free hour or two out of each cruse
    and in a pinch
    ye you could drift along knowing you weren't actually out of fuel

    been doing some real day dreaming about that boat
    wood only cost is about 15,000
    engine and drive train and electronics ?
    it would be twin electrics with twin diesel generators and about two dozen batteries
     
  6. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 493
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -74
    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Do you mean construction plan can be found easily and that they are not too sensitive to weight balancing of the turbine blades ?
     
  7. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    you would need to balance the blades but they are easy as hell to build
    its a squirrel cage mounted on a axis between a few ring magnets
    easy as pie
    a few roller bearings later to keep the thrust off the inside edge of the magnets and you got a wind generator

    add those wind directors you see in some of the videos and you increase the efficiency by about another thirty percent
    they are non directional so are unaffected by changes in wind direction that would virtually stop a conventional unit and you can get the high efficiency guts for the alternator housing at windblue or bluewind something like that
    the link is in an earlier post
    you can build a dam nice one for about five hundred if you wanted to go all out
    and if you really wanted to get silly you could try the counter rotating one
    but gearing that one up is a little more complex

    there is also a tulip design
    lots of room for creativity

    there are videos of the hole process if you go look

    way cheaper than solar cells and completely serviceable as well
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    so lets get things back on track
    this old boat has some real appeal

    [​IMG]

    its an old Elco 57

    this ones been converted to diesel but the originals were electric

    the thing is that most of the time pleasure boats just float in dock
    so while they're there why not spin up some electricity and take that free hour or so of cruising
    and have that luxury of never really running out of gas

    so what alternative source could be used to juice this thing up when just sitting round
    whats better solar wind or wave
    my two cents is wind and after that its wind turbine generators
    the suggestion of solar was made but that's expensive and not real serviceable ( also get dammaged in hail storms )

    we need a few parameters to realize the scope of the need
    the Warp 9 electric motor is a common cheep ( relatively ) conversion motor for do it yourself conversions of the chevy S10
    hears the stats

    [​IMG]

    so ideally you would want to run the thing at about 174 amps 72 volts
    and for that boat you would need two motors
    RR and Elco had several things in common one being they were both gutless wonders
    the motor costs about $1800 each
    the diesels that got put into the rebuild of the boat pictured were 230 hp each
    at a cost of I think around 4,000 each but thats a guess
    I didnt go look it up

    there is another option of instead of two smaller motors one larger motor
    the warp 11 but that thing just eats amperage and its $3500

    [​IMG]

    so Red has got a point about power requirements
    but
    every little bit helps and the less the generator is running when tied the better

    generator
    sticky question and I need to go do some math on that
    will post the generator requirements for the two warp 9 motor option
     
  9. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    my version of late night math

    ok let me run myself through the hole thing since its been a long time
    watts divided by volts = amps

    72x340=24,480 unbelievable watts
    a house typically has a 350+ amp service so this motor used about the same juice as a typical home

    so I have 24,480 watts
    I need 1 horsepower to create about 630 watts pr/hr or .6 Kwh ( yes I had to look that up )
    so 24,480 w / 630 = 40 HP generator

    and as it happens a nice $7000 55hp diesel generator can be had on line that would run this motor at peak draw
    although Im positive I could build my own lots cheaper ( thats a hole other thread )

    but for battery considerations
    Ild like to then consider that Ill be running under batteries at peak efficiency as a matter of course and not blasting over the bay
    so my amps at peak efficiency are 174
    and my usage is 12,528 watts/hr on each motor
    with a torque of 25 ft/lb at 3150 rpm

    so before I go much farther I need to rmember a few things about batteries
    there is a resistance to any electrical system that dictates how fast I can draw juice from it or through it

    so if Im remembering this correctly its not just how many batteries I have but how fast I can draw em down
    boils down to the slower I draw from a battery the better amp hours Ill get out of it

    so I think a typical duty cycle of say 4 hours sounds about right for a deep cell battery ( that was a pure guess )

    so 12 volts and 108 amps thats 27 amps pr hour and I end up with one seriously dead battery why do I remember being able to only draw about maybe eight amps per hour with out seriously screwing up a battery
    must have guessed wrong on the duty cycle

    so lets go with an 8 hour duty cycle just for fun
    and say I dont want to drain the batteries down bellow say 25%

    that gives me say 81 available amps over 8 hours or 10.1 amp/hrs pr battery at 12 volts or 1.68 amps/hr at 72 volts
    and my motor uses 174 peak efficiency amps/hr at 72 volts

    so I need 103 batteries at about $250 each to go for eight hours ($25,750)

    if I want 8 hours I need 103 batteries and I think I just sunk the boat
    if I want 4 hours its 52 per motor
    two hours and its 26 or ($6438) per motor

    ( there is someone in there with a pitchfork waiting to skewer me for some error Im about to or have already made )

    so how long does it take to charge 52 12volt 108amp/hr batteries
    ( the point Red was getting after )

    so now lets consider max efficiency of 174 amps and a few hours cruse time
    once again just for hemorrhaging cash like a mad man and forgetting to park my bar in the garage

    if the vawt generator is of the 2,500 watt 50 amp variety
    which is about five feet tall and just happens to fit under the canopy of that beautiful floating brothel I'ld love to call home

    and the engines use a ttl of 12,528 w/h over a period of 4 hours I end up needing
    50.1Kwh and 696 amps at 72v or 4176 amps at 12 volts
    assuming 100% efficiency and Ild be feeling lucky to get 80%

    a few things about charging

    I think there is a minimum charge that unless I hit it there will basically be no charging at all
    prety sure its about ten amps on something like a car battery so its bound to be similar on a deep cell

    anyone know how efficiently a battery charges
    cause thats going to seriously effect the numbers

    basically I have for each 50 amp generator call it four batteries I can charge if the wind is cooperating in say a three or four hour period of time
    three generators going full tilt thats 12 batteries at a crack and I have 52 pr motor
    104/12=8.6 call it 9
    9x4 hours per set of 12 =

    and the answer to Reds question is

    36 hours of continuous charging to go for 4

    assuming 104 batteries and dam impossible efficiency
    you could probably double that time and get it about right

    thats not so bad given Im just a day tripper and probably would be sitting round most of the time anyway

    course I spent
    26000 on batteries ( not much lowering that cost )
    1600 each on motors ( I could get em used for less than half that )
    7000 on a generator and I need two of em 14000 ( I could build em from two ( BMW R45 < 1000 each ) engines converted to alcohol and pushing a series of alternators way cheaper than that )
    1500 ttl on 3 wind turbines ( and Ild probable double that to six and make em retractible off the roof for cruising )

    so I could do it for
    26000 on batteries
    1600 for two warp9 motors
    7000 for two BMW R45 motorcycle engine generators able run independently from the batteries indefinitely (converted to alcohol )
    3000 for six 2,500 watt 50amp wind turbine generators with a recharge time of 36 hours in a 20 knot wind
    -----------------------------------
    = say 40,000 with all the bits and pieces

    as aposed to maybe 12000 on a pair of diesel engines
    and very little chance of explosion
    but 2000 a fill up

    so
    whats the cost of diesel at the dock and how long does it last in the tank
    given that if you work it out I could run the screw at 89% generator 11% batteries with a good wind indefinitely on a long haul
    or go for short hops and hardly buy fuel at all other than once a year or so when Ild take her out for a spin

    thing is you'd end up sleeping with batteries piled around you cause you be hard pressed to find a spot for 104 of em
    course its about 2250 bucks to fill the 750 gallon tank at 3 bucks a gal for diesel and its only going up

    next question is whats the speed of the boat at 25 ft/lb and 3150 shaft rpm before gearing pr motor
     
  10. Kay9
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Location: Central Coast Oregon US.

    Kay9 1600T Master

    Dont forget that the batts have a max 5 year life span. So thats 26000 / 5 years of life so its 5200 per year in batt operating cost.

    Ive done this math over and over and over, on everything from my motorhometo my 40' commercial fishing boat. Its just a LOT more cost effective to go with diesels.

    K9
     
  11. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    local guy owns a auto parts place up the road Ive done lots of biz with says he would get me the batteries half price if I buy em all at once
    basically wholesale

    I wonder what 25 ft/lbs at 3150 revs equates to in terms of screw power
    also wonder what the rebuild screw speed is at cruse
     
  12. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 6,823
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    The only way I can justify batteries is to say "house supply" where the draw rate is more genteel... The electric drive uses batteries as a buffer whilst the diesel gensets catch up with load and a "silly?" attitude where I do not want holes through the hulls below the waterline - - The electric drives are a pair of "outboards" - Torqeedo - that have a peak draw of 4000W at 48v - about 166A for the pair, but normal draw at restrained cruise for 4knots seems nearer a third that in calm conditions... My boat weighs in at 4800kg or less and is quite slippery with long hulls for narrow beam somewhere around 1:15 beam:length ratio.... Batteries are the most difficult and expensive part as the draw rate can be very high (damaging to most) and duration is brief as I think I understand a C20 rated battery means something like 50% use in 20 hours - - WTF - next to useless for reliable life in service - So it has to be specialised batteries like can be found on golf buggies or indoor use forklifts or the GM volta car.... "millions" of AA sized cells in a package are relatively light, can charge and discharge at high rates OK but cost (need a printing press or access to the spare sheets from uncle Ben Bs printing press:D:D:D)

    Electric drive motors can deliver near full torque at zero revs and up and the Torqeedo claim the 4 R series equate to a 10hp outboard in thrust??? - the peak revs at the screw are about 1200 (from my failing memory).... remember most motors/generators loose for a delivery around 0.8 - is the word "factor" used there somewhere?...

    I am closely watching battery and PV panel developments and 10 "Sharp" 200W panels and spiral wound agm batteries are my present standards markers... Gassing is a concern as I have seen a couple of small H2 explosions on boats and fear same greatly...

    Oh - and a very pretty boat - something like a "Brisbane bay boat" used for fishing then converted to leisure cruiser...
     
  13. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    those azipod drives are really slick

    having worked the numbers on the two Warp9 motors I wanna run em on one Warp11

    260 amps at 72 volts and 1976 rpm producing 70 ft lbs at its most efficient

    for eight hours Ild need
    260x8hrs= 2080 amps at 72volts over eight hours
    batteries allow 1.68 amps per hour at 72 volts for 8 hours
    or 13.5 amps at 72 volts over eight hours at 75% discharge

    at 75% discharge in 8 hours
    2080/13.5=154 batteries to go eight hours no charge at 70 ft/lbs and 1979 rpm
    as apposed to
    206 batteries to go eight hours no charge at 50 ft/lbs and 3147 rpm

    sticky thing is the rpm
    when geared down things look like the warp11 is the winner
    with a 3/1 ratio for the warp 9 yielding aprox 150 ft/lbs
    and 2/1 ratio for the warp11 yielding aprox 140 ft/lbs

    150/206=.728 ft/lbs per battery
    140/154=.909 ft/lbs per battery

    next thing to think of is that this boat was converted to two 230 hp diesels which at 2500 rpm produce about 600 ft/lbs torque max
    if I remember there is some kind of funky difference between the power comparisons of internal combustion and electric

    an electric warp9 28 hp motor is used by Chevy to convert there S10 to an electric from a 190 hp internal combustion engine
    which is were this hole thing started from

    Im also seeing the range of lifetime for the batteries varying from 3-5 hundred cycles up to 15 hundred cycles
    anything from 4-10 years although Ive never seen a battery last me longer than about 5
     
  14. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/Torqeedo_Australia/News.html "...The Cruise 4.0 R redefines the standards for electric propulsion. It converts supplied battery power better into propulsion than any other outboard. Now, users get more power and range from the same battery supply.

    The new, powerful Cruise model runs on 48 V. Offering 97 kg of thrust, the Cruise 4.0 R has the thrust equivalent to a 9.9 hp internal combustion outboard. More importantly, the propulsive power, measured as speed times thrust after all losses including propeller losses, compares to an 8 hp gas outboard in displacement mode.

    "When talking about electric propulsion for boats, battery power is always the limiting factor. Therefore it's paramount to use the limited battery power as efficiently as possible," said Torqeedo managing partner Christoph Ballin.

    "For electric outboards, overall efficiencies range between 20% for trolling motors and up to 35% for stronger electric propulsion motors. The overall efficiencies for internal combustion outboards are significantly lower than that," said Ballin. "We don't know of any other outboard that even gets close to the efficiency levels we offer...."
     

  15. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    the gorilla of the battery world

    [​IMG]

    3300 cycles 10 year life grantee 15 expected weighs 424 lbs costs ~$1200 each
    8V
    20 hour discharge available amps 820 41 pr/hr
    12 hour discharge available amps 713 59.5 pr/hr
    8 hour discharge available amps 640 80 pr/hr

    or 8.9 amp/hrs each at 72 volts and 8 hour discharge time
    71.2 amps at 72 volts at 8 hours
    motor wants 260 amps at peak efficiency for 8 hours thats 2080 amps/71.2-= 29 batteries
    call it 30 batteries drawn to 50% as each battery actually holds 1156 amp/hrs at 8v
    $ 36,000 for eight hours no charge
    or 16 tanks of diesel at 3 a gallon and a 750 gallon tank
    over ten years assuming the price of diesel remains the same as it is today ( fat chance )

    on a typical deep cell battery the following seems to be the general consensus
     
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